Technically, no. You are hiring him to diagnose and fix a problem. If he didn't do it right the first time, it's on him to do it correctly.

Applying this principle is the hard part. If you refuse to pay until he fixes it correctly, he might try to keep your car, etc., you would need to sue to get it back, etc.....

 

There must be a law on this that you could push in their face or something..

 

This is about what we have now, but what does this accomplish?
Place yourself in the shoes of the mechanic.:cheesy:
We need far better training for our craftsmen....but mine?
OJT
When I entered the "assembler " field I did not even know how to use a screwdriver:x. At school I had zero training and had no idea as to my "chosen career"....
Few did back then..

 

Incompetence is legal, of course.
What we need here is a much better education system, for both tradesmen and consumers.
What we do not need is paperwork designed by paper-heads - which is close to what we have now.
To improve things is no easy task.
When I was in the field with VW, we had to place the defective or replaced parts in the car....a good concept maybe.
At both Saab and VW we had to test, usually using a known good part as a slave.
The problem in this field, and others , is that few are willing to pay for a reasonable diagnosis....The consumer encourages the guessing game..The mechanics boss does the same...
Many have never heard of the word "diagnose".:cheesy:

 

I'm just wondering for example, this guy with the vibrations could have his car diagnosed and they could tell him it's the struts or something. Replace em, then you find out it didn't fix the problem.

He has now paid for a huge job, lots of $$, still the same problem. So he'd have to go back to them and say "Give me my money back for the job you did" or "I'll pay for parts but not labor" or "Fix it free of charge now" or "I'm gonna sue you." Seems like a pretty treacherous situation to jump into.

 

I'm just wondering for example, this guy with the vibrations could have his car diagnosed and they could tell him it's the struts or something. Replace em, then you find out it didn't fix the problem.

He has now paid for a huge job, lots of $$, still the same problem. So he'd have to go back to them and say "Give me my money back for the job you did" or "I'll pay for parts but not labor" or "Fix it free of charge now" or "I'm gonna sue you." Seems like a pretty treacherous situation to jump into.

To instill fear in any man is far from any solution. Knowledge is the answer.
The manufacturers and our government can help a whole lot more than they do right now.
Vibrations can be as perplexing to the technician as , as an example, headaches are to a doctor.
In either case, the communications can be better.
Man must learn how to say "I don't know".
I'd love to see the engineers invent a device that can pinpoint the exact offending mechanism that is the cause..

 

I just expect that, if they make a diagnosis and it's wrong, the ball is in their court, so if they're willing to compromise and not charge labor for that (and on parts, technically, you should be able to ask for a refund since it was an incorrect diagnosis) it should be ok.

They're professionals, this is their job, and they should be able to make a simple or difficult problem's diagnosis with the resources they have.
This is what we pay em for and they should be held to the heat, as any business would and should be.
That's really the sole reason I bring cars to mechanics, aside from being too lazy or not having the time/resources/patience/ability - for correct diagnostics on problems.

 

What you say is true - they are paid to know how to do something, and shouldn't expect payment until they've done it correctly.

Unfortunately, so many people allow themselves to be intimidated, can't do without their cars, etc, that many shops just throw parts at cars and keep charging the customer for their guesswork. And, the customers just shake their heads and say, "Screwed again...!"

Competent, honest shops will not do this, but they appear to be few and far between.

 

Long ago, when I worked for a telecommunications manufacturer, as part of customer support they had each circuit pack (72 pins/pack IIRC) placed in a pack extender and opened each pin, ran a diagnostic and got the trouble code. Then, they did the same thing, but this time they grounded each pin and got the trouble code. Then they published a listing of trouble codes in relation to each circuit pack/pin. Keep in mind that back then, there were hundreds of packs per frame and many, many frames in a Telco office. However, this procedure did not address multiple failures or shorts/crosses with adjacent pins. The technique proved to be successful, but obviously not 100% successful... Ron

 

I see where you guys are going with this, however you can't really fault a mechanic for an incorrect diagnosis suspension; suspension is tough. If you are testing a no start, that's easy. You swap out the test CPS, DIC, jumpstart fuel pump ect. With suspension, if some of your suspension is failing, then the mechanic is still giving you new suspension parts that will last you longer than if you had the old ones. Some parts are easy to diagnose, some issues are only diagnosed by swapping parts. I mean, a good mechanic should know that struts are bad if you push down on the front end of the car and the struts do not "dampen" the bounce, but not all mechanics are good mechanic :cheesy:.
A way to cure shoddy mechanics work is to do the work yourself. The only way you get it done right. Period.

 

Yes, you can and should fault a mechanic for a misdiagnosis of ANYTHING. That's theoretically the point of going to a professional - you go to him because he has the tools, knowledge and experience to know how to fix something - the first time!
You or I, as amateurs, can guess at the problem. He isn't "allowed" to charge you or me for guesswork.
If he misdiagnoses it, it's on him. He says, "Shxx," realizes his mistake, diagnoses it correctly and fixes it right - and has added to his knowledge base. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be!!

I once had a service rep at a dealer tell me hiring a mechanic to fix my car is like hiring a lawyer to represent me in court - it won't always go my way. Well, guess what - WRONG! Court involves peoples' emotions, opinions and interpretations of the law. Automotive repair "simply" involves machines and knowing just how to fix them.

 

You would feel a little different if you were the meachanic busaboy. It's like a doctor performing a surgery. They can sometimes perform an operation, but maybe a blocked artery was not the issue, maybe it was a heart condition. Do you tell the surgeon you won't pay for his time unblocking the artery? No. Mechanics are doctors for vehicles.
BTW this should be in the lounge, this is not a technical question.

 

Nope...I wouldn't. You are one of the people that don't understand that pros are supposed to know what they're doing, not just guessing!

If you're not up to the job, do something else!

(Why should this suddenly be in the lounge, right after you make your "point?")

 

I thought that this was the reason to pay a mechanic with a credit card. If there's a problem, it can be negotiated by the cc company and the mechanic. A few years ago, my son had a out-patient hernia operation. In by 8:00 AM; home by 11:00 AM same day. He saw the bill that was sent to his insurance company - ~$11-k. His insurance company negotiated it down to $4-k, of which they paid 80% (maybe 90%) and he paid the rest. Anyway, that was much better than him paying the entire $11-k... Ron

 

definitely a good idea

 

To properly diagnose a car is nearly impossible. I have had my run-ins with mechanics plenty of times; my blood pressure still rises when I think of a select few..

I honestly believe that the level of intelligence that it would require to diagnose every problem as accurately as you would like is pretty high. Easily high enough for a person to earn a degree in engineering and get a better paying less uncomfortable job.

Unique test gear would need to be designed to determine whether a shimmy is caused by a bad CV joint or a worn bushing or something else. You could end up with 40 hours of diagnosis when the whole suspension replacement would book less than 10 hours.

This equipment would be specific to the make, model, and year of car.

In other words, you'd have to be some sort of fanatical enthusiast about a particular type of car to get it right every time... And you'd still be wrong sometimes.

Where are you gonna find people like that anyways??

The man did hard work busting his knuckles on your car and probably honestly thought he was fixing the problem. If you believe otherwise, then I'd choose a different shop next time. Or just DIY

Good luck with your car man. I know your pain all too well. The book value of my car is now lower than the amount of money I've spent on incompetent mechanics alone over its life. A haynes manual can be had for $50.

 

This would be a case of the guy saying, "It could be x, y or z; I won't know until I take it apart." That is certainly reasonable in number of cases

Then, once he has it apart, it IS x, y or z, he fixes it or them, and the car is repaired! But, if it isn't, and after he gets it together and realizes it's not fixed (he realizes this after a test drive, of course - he doesn't let the customer be the test driver!!), and the problem is REALLY zz, he fixes THAT and lives and learns.

The paying by credit card is a good idea, too. If it's not fixed, and the guy refuses to fix it correctly for no additional charge, one can stop payment. Of course, one would not go back to that guy!

 

I still find that hard to believe...I think that approach is giving them far too much leeway. It's their job, and they have the resources. At least, the saab pros who specialize in saabs. The "pros" at Meineke for example get a little more leeway because of their lack of expertise, which is why I avoid places like that at all costs. Not to mention they don't give a crap about your car or whether or not you're satisfied, largely speaking.

 

Good point

 

3 yrs ago I was on hols in the UK where I used to live and the CEL came on under hard acceleration, now I used to be a sales rep for Sun Electric Corporation for 8 yrs and this was my old patch so I knew the dealers and what equipment they had bought.
I went into the nearest Saab dealer and asked them to put the Tech 2 on it and pull the codes, it came up misfire on cyl 4 so the mechanic said I needed a new DIC, I went round to the parts and bought it and fitted it in the carpark. We drove off and 6 miles later the CEL was on again, so I went back and got the guy out again and he then said maybe I need plugs instead, I changed those and took the DIC back to the parts dept and they said they couldn't give a refund as it had been fitted to the car, yes I said but your guy diagnosed the fault and told me that was what I needed and I bought it on the basis of his diagnosis, they tried arguing but when I let it drop that I was the Sun rep who had kitted out their workshop and most of the others in town they realised they couldn't scam me and gave me a refund, and the car was fine.
It makes me wonder how many folks get ripped off that don't have a technical background, and just accept what the dealer tells them when they get a big bill for parts they never needed.

 

Fight the *******s with everything you got, it's the same with every other business. All too often people take what they're dealt with and don't fight for what is right.
If you don't hold them to proper standards they will screw you no matter what business, if it's the gov't, etc. :evil: Especially the dealer..

 

The first thing that you need to understand is the laws of your locality, state or country that may bear on the situation. The second thing to understand are the rules and by-laws of whatever professional organizations the mechanic or shop belong to. The third thing is to understand the protections in place when you pay with a credit card... you do ALWAYS pay your mechanic with a credit card, right? Why do you think there's often a cash discount? Hmmmm???

As much as I would prefer to remove the CPS with a rounded out Torx and a butter knife in a driving snowstorm than take my car to a mechanic, when I am absolutely forced to do so, I let them know right off the bat that this is a matter of me needing their specific facilities or tools, not their ability to swing a wrench or guess what's wrong with my car.

It really is key that you set your expectations high with the mechanic or shop right off the bat. "I have X problem. I want an estimate to fix X problem. I will pay for the parts and labour required to fix X problem. If you put parts on to fix X problem, and it doesn't fix the problem, that's on you." If you've got a good working relationship with your mechanic, sure, pay for parts hung in error. If not...

While I was in Iraq, my wife had an O2 sensor crap out. She took it to a "reputable" mechanic. The mechanic replaced the O2 sensor, cleared the CEL, charged her over $300 and sent her on her way. The CEL lit back up within a block. She turned the car around and took it back. They kept it for two days before deciding it was the ECU, replaced that, charged her $800 and sent her on her way. Guess what happened when the CEL lit back up? She took it back and they spent two more days with it before deciding that they didn't know what was wrong with it. It took me, standing on the roof of my teamroom with a satellite telephone to explain to them that, in no instance, were we going to pay them a single penny for what they had done to "fix" the problem. I gave them the opportunity to provide my wife a rental car and valet service if they would like to collect her car and remove the ECU and O2 sensor they had replaced. Not surprisingly, they were not interested. So, I called my credit card company (USAA) and they stopped payment. There was some rankling about litigation but when I pointed out that I would call every one of their mechanics, sales reps, managers and the president of their company as witnesses, they relented. I don't feel great about the "free" ECU and O2 sensor we got. But, it is what it is.

Bottom line: the mechanic is supposed to provide you with a service; fixing your car. If they don't fix your car, why would you pay them? Sure, there's some guesswork involved but you're paying for their experience and professional opinion. If they guess incorrectly, the only impact that should have on you is that it takes longer to get the car done.

 

Hear, hear!! If more people held them to it like you do, there would be less conning going on....

Too many people let the "car repair wizards" intimidate them!

 

Wow @ the above story, unbelievable.

 

Ahem....I guess that's me....although I don't know about the "better-paying" part...!! LOL!!!

 

I prefer to only go to mechanics with whom I have an established relationship, who I know are honest with me and who know that I'm no idiot. Of course, that relationship has to start somewhere and it's those first few visits that really set the tone. Last month, I had to take my Saab to a shop I had never used before (the first time since I got it that it needed something I couldn't do myself). I asked here for any recommendations from other members in my area, and went to one of those shops. I made sure I told them what I had already done in trying to address the noise I was getting (which included replacing the water pump) and that I had heard about them on a Saab owners' forum (the manager was glad to hear that and even asked which one).

They did excellent work, including spending considerable time on the diagnosis. When the service manager called to tell me the diagnosis, he started with "I can see why you were stumped...". Aside from fixing the problem, he listed some other work it would need soon (all minor stuff) and said "Obviously, since you replaced the water pump, you can handle this stuff yourself.". While I believe this shop has the professionalism to treat every customer well, there was certainly value in establishing up front that I have a very good understanding of what's under the hood and am not afraid to get my hands dirty.

Bottom line, make sure they know from the start that you're not a sucker.

 

I've had PLENTY of practice.....

I do most of my own work. But, when I take it somewhere (typically to a known entity as discussed by Nova) to do something I can't or won't handle, there isn't any throwing of parts at my car!

I suppose it makes a difference that I appear to know what's what...

But, I think finding a good, professional shop and sticking with them is the real key!