[righthandman]

To avoid my mistakes

Wow, quite the post.
About to start my own b207r valve adventure; I've read through WIS a few times.
Did you get a chance to use WIS?

 

[Blueskull42]

Are any of the guide or tensioner bolts TTY? Also the sprocket bolts other than the cam sprocket?

 

[righthandman]

I've read many posts/comments where the guide bolts have broken after being reused. I'm going to opt to replace.

 

[Snowden]

Wow, quite the post.
About to start my own b207r valve adventure; I've read through WIS a few times.
Did you get a chance to use WIS?

Hi, late to reply but yeah, I used WIS. I also watched a pretty good video on this subject:

 

[MikeCZE]

Not to resurrect an old thread, but I wanted to say thanks to the people who contributed. It helped me out a ton while I spent the last couple days struggling with my own timing chain adventure. At 110k miles, it was due and every hole and cover on that side of the engine had evidence of slow oil leaks. What started out as a while you're at it turned into a harrowing moment when the first balance chain guide bolt snapped off in the block. Sorted that out and then ran into the backwards cam gears once I thought I was making headway. It was an incredible relief to see an explanation for that. The job was a heck of a learning experience, but I now have a happier engine that is running quieter than when I bought it a year ago. Just a few more things to go and my to-do list for 2025 will be completed. Thanks again.

 

[born again]

Not to resurrect an old thread, but I wanted to say thanks to the people who contributed. It helped me out a ton while I spent the last couple days struggling with my own timing chain adventure. At 110k miles, it was due and every hole and cover on that side of the engine had evidence of slow oil leaks. What started out as a while you're at it turned into a harrowing moment when the first balance chain guide bolt snapped off in the block. Sorted that out and then ran into the backwards cam gears once I thought I was making headway. It was an incredible relief to see an explanation for that. The job was a heck of a learning experience, but I now have a happier engine that is running quieter than when I bought it a year ago. Just a few more things to go and my to-do list for 2025 will be completed. Thanks again.

By saying "backwards cam gears" were you using the keyed sprockets and ran into the Cyl 1 vs. Cyl 4 problem?

 

[MikeCZE]

Exactly. With the cam guides on #1 per the WIS, the new sprockets would not fit the chain timing links, or seat correctly on the camshafts. Took a bit to figure out why that was happening. Your post earlier in the thread helped clear that up. Hence the gratitude.

 

[Snowden]

Curious if your old sprockets had damage or if you we're just taking the precaution of changing them while you were in there?

 

[MikeCZE]

All of the internal timing components looked fine, so the "repair" was more about preventative maintenance in that respect. I was getting some noise at startup on the timing chain side of the engine, but I think that was more the fault of the belt tensioner (also replaced). I set the original chain next to the replacement and it looked to have had been a couple millimeters of stretch added to the length, so I may have just been ahead of a problem beyond all of the covers leaking from near solid and cracked gaskets.

 

[born again]

Did you say you had the cam timing blocks? Then you don't have to worry about skipping a tooth on the intake sprocket timing mark.

 

[reece1977]

After reading your posts it appears that my timing issue is related to the non Saab Cam Sprockets that needs TDC#4 rather than TDC#1.

I want to preface this by saying I have ADHD i take my time and spent months planning this (started the timing kit replacement 5 days ago) and I can't say I found any mention of the Cam Sprocket issue. I am very meticulous to the point I lay out every part that needs to be installed, labelling socket and torque spec amd cleaning and returning every tool that won't be actively used in the next 3 minutes. I will lay down tools if I think something is wrong. Unfortunately I left that too late on this occasion.

So I followed WIS:


Spark plugs removed and timing marks on Crankshaft Pulley and Block are aligned. Cam locks installed on TDC#1.

Everything aligns internally until I get to changing the Cam Sprockets. At TDC#1 the Cam keys face inwards which puts the INT indicator at the 9am position to the Exhaust Cam and the EXT indicator at the 3pm position on the Intake Cam. The dark grey links on the timing chain sit at 10am and 2pm on the Cam Sprockets.

To compare, I put on the Original Saab Cam Sprockets but there were no defineable marks or key. So I went back to installing the new Cam Sprockets

It wasn't until I put on Timing Cover, Crankshaft Pulley and removed the Cam Locks did I notice that there was a 1cm gap (maybe less) between the time on the Crankshaft Pulley and the Block.

I foolishly rotated the Crankshaft Pulley two times with the same result (the Pulley moved just as freely when I originally set time) The #1 cylinder was sitting at TDC and the Cam Lock slipped directly on which I proceeded to torque down.

I knew.something was amiss, which has lead me to this thread.

I understand that I need to set #4 to TDC to use the new Sprockets. I just don't know how to get there from where I currently am.

What is confusing me, is, if timing of the Crankshaft Pulley with the block can only be achieved when TDC#1 because of the original Saab Non keyed Cam Sprokets, would those timing marks align to TDC#4? If not how do you go about setting time and changing the Cam Sprockets?

I would really appreciate your insight into my predicament

 

[Snowden]

It's been a long time since I thought about this but I'll try my best.

First, where did you read that you must put the engine at TDC for the 4th cylinder in order to use the keyed sprockets? In the ecotec timing chain video in my original post the guy says to use TDC1.

Next thing is, once you remove the chain you'll be able to independently rotate each camshaft and the crankshaft. You can just line up the top cam lobes at cylinder 1 so they face up and inward and fit into the cam locking tool, and rotate the camshaft such that the 1st cylinder is all the way in the up position and the timing mark on the crank pulley lines up with the mark on the timing cover. Just go slowly so you don't slam the valves into the pistons. You'll feel if they're touching - don't force it. Then you can put on the chains and line up the colored links with the dots on the various sprockets. This is basically how I remember doing it after I completely ruined my timing by rotating it a bunch of times without the tensioners on.

Bear in mind it has been a few years since I was in there so my memory might be a little hazy.

 

[reece1977]

It's been a long time since I thought about this but I'll try my best.

First, where did you read that you must put the engine at TDC for the 4th cylinder in order to use the keyed sprockets? In the ecotec timing chain video in my original post the guy says to use TDC1.

Next thing is, once you remove the chain you'll be able to independently rotate each camshaft and the crankshaft. You can just line up the top cam lobes at cylinder 1 so they face up and inward and fit into the cam locking tool, and rotate the camshaft such that the 1st cylinder is all the way in the up position and the timing mark on the crank pulley lines up with the mark on the timing cover. Just go slowly so you don't slam the valves into the pistons. You'll feel if they're touching - don't force it. Then you can put on the chains and line up the colored links with the dots on the various sprockets. This is basically how I remember doing it after I completely ruined my timing by rotating it a bunch of times without the tensioners on.

Bear in mind it has been a few years since I was in there so my memory might be a little hazy.

Appreciate your advice. The TDC#4 was based on some of the advice by another in this thread when using the keyed Sprokets. Which kinda makes sense based on how the keys are positioned on these new sprokets.

So its currently setup at TDC#1 with cam locks on. I am confused at the next step as you would remove cam locks and rotate to get timing marks to match before removing crankshaft pulley and timing cover etc before removing the chain.

Based on what you're saying, I would just remove cam locks (even though currently at TDC#1), remove crankshaft pulley and timing cover. Remove timing chain. Then I manually move the Intake and exhaust back to TDC#1 and independently move crankshaft to timing cover mark?

I'll give it a go (I'll take it slowly )

 

[Snowden]

Appreciate your advice. The TDC#4 was based on some of the advice by another in this thread when using the keyed Sprokets. Which kinda makes sense based on how the keys are positioned on these new sprokets.

So its currently setup at TDC#1 with cam locks on. I am confused at the next step as you would remove cam locks and rotate to get timing marks to match before removing crankshaft pulley and timing cover etc before removing the chain.

Based on what you're saying, I would just remove cam locks (even though currently at TDC#1), remove crankshaft pulley and timing cover. Remove timing chain. Then I manually move the Intake and exhaust back to TDC#1 and independently move crankshaft to timing cover mark?

I'll give it a go (I'll take it slowly )

The procedure I mentioned is what I did when I was pretty certain I had jumped a few teeth on the sprockets and it was how I remember fixing that. I don't think it is needed to go so far as to do that if you know your timing is correct. In that case you can just line up everything and replace the chain with the locks on. It seems there is some uncertainty if your timing is correct due to the diamond marks on your sprockets not pointing as expected, or maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Snowden]

Now I see what you were mentioning about #4 TDC:

For some reason, with the keys engaged these sprockets line up backwards if you use #1 TDC for the cam positions. So to make it all fit you need to use #4 TDC - the cam lobes pointing up and in.

If you are using the Saab sprockets and the alignment blocks then use #1 cylinder TDC position for the cams.

I kind of glossed over that in my job since I have the Saab unmarked ones, but that seems worth considering.

 

[aerojon]

(1) Balance shafts | SaabCentral Forums see here also..

 

[reece1977]

By saying "backwards cam gears" were you using the keyed sprockets and ran into the Cyl 1 vs. Cyl 4 problem?

I have run into this problem as per my correspondence with Snowden.

The difference with his situation is that he used the Saab Sprockets vs the keyed sprockets that have them facing the wrong way. So TDC #1 for him would work.

I sprained my ankle yesterday, so any problem solving was put on hold.

I followed WIS and purchased the b207l cam bocks. I originally set time by turning the crank twice, which lined up the mark on the crank pulley and the timing cover:

Putting Piston 1 at TDC. The Cam blocks fit perfectly.

Everything lined up until the keyed sprokets. Which I proceeded to install, facing the wrong way as that is the only way I.could get them to seat by using TDC #1

I installed guides and tentioners and set the tentioner. When I put on the cam cover and crankshaft pulley, I noticed the timing mark was off by less than 1 cm ( I assume due to the sprokets being installled when piston 1 was set at TDC) i rotated crank twice with timing mark still being slightly off.

I stopped, when I reconised that this was a big issue.

I have been doing quite a bit of reading and have read your posts and threads especially around using Piston 4 for TDC when using these keyed sprokets. I just dont know what steps I need to follow and in what order.

I don't want to cause any damage (if I haven't already)

I assume when TDC on Piston/cylinder #4, that the key on the crankshaft will be the same as TDC #1 i.e. at the 12 o'clock position, and the INT and EXH cam sprockets to #4 should be facing up and inwards and the cams on #1 should be facing down and outwards. This will allow the INT and EXT indicators to line up with the coloured chain links? I also assume the cam locks should fit the same on #4 cams?

If that is correct, I want to know Exactly how I achieve it.

I'd really appreciate your feedback




but when I think I have the solution I keep doubtin
What would be the next steps considering I can't get the timing marks to line up.