SaabCentral Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
How much of a BHP increase would I see if I up graded from my stock 900 turbo.

I running about 270 bhp MapTun stage three ?

Is there any other benefits
Plz Ta
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,170 Posts
The ECU may be 270bhp but with a stock IC you will be more likely at 220bhp. Although the Viggen is better than stock it's not that good for the kind of power your ECU can dish out so I'd go for something bigger. Do you have a bigger DP? - this would be the first upgrade BTW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
933 Posts
The only mod you have is the ECU? If so you are probally not holding high boost for long are you? You need to get your exhaust done and some type of intercooler. I just did the viggen intercooler and I will say it is much better than the stock one, as far as flow goes. I have yet to do multiple pulles but the core doesn't look much better so heat soak is probally still a problem. Your boost will come on sooner with the viggen intercooler and you will have more power. I am sorry this post was so long I am lonely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
949 Posts
bwell said:
How much of a BHP increase would I see if I up graded from my stock 900 turbo.

I running about 270 bhp MapTun stage three ?

Is there any other benefits
Plz Ta
IIRC, Maptun quote the Stage 3 at 265 HP. The Stage 3 is listed as the ECU, Exhaust, Intake combination.

If you have the entirety of the Stage 3 in place now, expect another 10-15 HP with the Viggen I/C.

D-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
Forget the Viggen IC, it's crap.
Even on a stock Viggen it does not work efficiently enough. You MIGHT see a few horsepower gain in a quick dyno sweep on your setup but in real life on the street when you are pulling through the gears in a long WOT-run, intake temps will skyrocket with the Viggen IC and your car will quickly be out of breath.
If you are upgrading the IC, get something that works right away and don't mess about with a toy for a IC like the Viggen unit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
Rogozhin said:
What intercooler would you suggest pade?

Rogo
Well there are a number of more or less bolt-on units that outperforms the Viggen IC by a mile.
Check with Genuine Saab for instance, Forge has one (maybe the one at Genuine?), MP Performance..
Then if you're not afraid of some mods there has been really good results from universal "China IC's". Do a search on the forum, there are numerous threads regarding intercoolers :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Dave and pade


The intercooler has gone now on ebay and i missed it.
It went for £50 ($100)
If 10-15 hp is true then i wish I had got it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
yikes
$100 used?

aren't they only a few bucks more new?
Just buy an Ebay IC like pade said, and a generic 2.5" IC pipe kit.
Get one that's 8 or 10" tall, and 20-ish inches wide.

you'll be fiiine.

For the price of a viggen IC, and the OEM pipes, you might as well get a cheap IC core.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
I wouldn't say I agree with the above. Intercooler design and manufacture is key to good performance. These $100 bucks IC are usually a piece of crap, bad welds, restrictive to airflow, inconsistent under pressure/temp combination.

The "art" of designing a good IC has to do with calculus of debit of air in and out (no restrictions, but neither is interesting to have such a big IC that pressure drops) temperature drops at different presuures, and else.

The majority of IC's adapted to Saab's are usually wishfull thinkig, the reality is it has to be well calculated for your pressure and air debit you are working with, except for exotic performances, I would say the only one I know to be of a good craftmanship and calculations is the Forge IC, although I have no close knowledge of the ETS, which looks like more or less the same, but we should know if its restricictive to flow or pressure.

Just my own 2 cents, and my personal opinion and experience. :cheesy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,975 Posts
fromero said:
I wouldn't say I agree with the above. Intercooler design and manufacture is key to good performance. These $100 bucks IC are usually a piece of crap, bad welds, restrictive to airflow, inconsistent under pressure/temp combination.

The "art" of designing a good IC has to do with calculus of debit of air in and out (no restrictions, but neither is interesting to have such a big IC that pressure drops) temperature drops at different presuures, and else.

The majority of IC's adapted to Saab's are usually wishfull thinkig, the reality is it has to be well calculated for your pressure and air debit you are working with, except for exotic performances, I would say the only one I know to be of a good craftmanship and calculations is the Forge IC, although I have no close knowledge of the ETS, which looks like more or less the same, but we should know if its restricictive to flow or pressure.

Just my own 2 cents, and my personal opinion and experience. :cheesy:
here we go again...

please correct if I'm wrong but believe you're one of those guys has no first hand experience of anything you wrote above, nor have you ever seen an Ebay IC any closer than the pictures displayed in that site?

But lets start from the beginning even though I have written this same stuff tens of times into this forum to various discussion. Benchmarking IC's begins with measurement because every single value related to the performance of any IC can easily be obtained through numbers, but for some mysterious resons you dont see these values laid out by any of the IC manufacturers?
Nor do to many end user bother to do simple before and after tests when they ugrade their IC. Do to this reason, these converstion of IC performance etc. dont have much depth because nothing concrete is laid and the talk focuses mainly on IC size (bigger is better...), volume (more is good...), price (money buys value...), brand (name is good...) etc, which in the end dont mean an dime to how the IC ACTUALLY works in real life.

It was also good that you pointed out one imaginary IC design process, but this is how well the "justification" side is made at one "brand name" IC manufacturer who makes IC to saab.

ETS Michael said:
We are in the process of building an intercooler tester
I guess the "art" of "guesstimation" is as good as a method as testing without an IC tester...

I made my choice more than a year back and selected a cheepo China IC for my car, after the western built high price unit became too small for the new HW I had put into the car. Since then I have personally pressure tested my IC does not leak, nor have the dozen of the other IC's from China to which similar test have made. Welds? they look more or less the same as they are in "brand name" IC's
http://www.stcf.net/viggen/welds.jpg

The unit I have in my car cost me 200E and it works wonders in bhp level ~450hp. Maybe one could point out where I could see a gain if I where to buy a double, triple, quadrouble priced IC from a brand name manufacturer?

Here are a few numbers

Bell intercoolers said:
What ranges of efficiency can be expected from an intercooler?
A typical air-to-air intercooler for a street application achieves between 60% and 70% efficiency, an excellent/optimum design for road racing can approach close to 90% efficiency, but requires an adequate "budget!”




5 back to back 80-140 km/h runs within 1min.
http://www.stcf.net/viggen/kiina_stressi.pdf
Efficiency at end of last run 90.65%
Efficiency peak 94%
max temp over ambient 13C
min temp over ambient 7C

20s WOT
http://www.stcf.net/viggen/kiina_long1.gif
16C over ambient at the end of run (efficency >= 90%)
Extend the run an another 10s and the temp will raise 6C more.

Pressure
http://www.stcf.net/viggen/pressure1.gif
Measured at compressor outlet and right before throttle plate.

Heatsoak tests, carried out in away that car has been stressed, then parked to allow the IC to heatsoak. After this moved to on-ramp and to allow it idle for 10min and do WOT run directly after it.
www.stcf.net/viggen/heatsoak.pdf
www.stcf.net/viggen/heatsoak2.pdf
Effect of heatsoak ananoumous and effiecy >90% as soon as boost begins to build up.

Likewise results have been obtained from other cheepo IC's as well, so it not the question is not about a "one piece wonder". You may also be tempted to set-up a poll to ask the onwers of cheepo ebay IC's that how many are dissapointed in what the got.

my 0.02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
Good post, good answers, good data, I stand corrected. ;oops:

Now where do you say these IC's for a 93 can be found of a relative size so as to repalce the stock Viggen one?

Thanks,

Good work...
;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,975 Posts
fromero said:
Now where do you say these IC's for a 93 can be found of a relative size so as to repalce the stock Viggen one?
it depends if you're looking for a "plug&play" solution or not. There are many units which will fit with modest work, when the size is kept resonable. If thats not enough, then you will need to spend a few more hours in the garage to modife the surrounding parts to make room for the bigger IC.
Use search for more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
267 Posts
In good consideration, I would buy a plug & play solution or the most similar, no problem to change hoses, but I do not want to lose things like fog lights, ac or others. The only thing is the sizes I see are 30" long, and that is longer than the stock Viggen IC, thus, we have to take into account also the 90º hoses...Does that fit in the stock palcement?

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Yes an ebay IC would be great
I Also would want one that would be easy to fit my self.
Can some one post a link to a tryed and tested one.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,901 Posts
pade900 said:
Forget the Viggen IC, it's crap.
Even on a stock Viggen it does not work efficiently enough. You MIGHT see a few horsepower gain in a quick dyno sweep on your setup but in real life on the street when you are pulling through the gears in a long WOT-run, intake temps will skyrocket with the Viggen IC and your car will quickly be out of breath.
If you are upgrading the IC, get something that works right away and don't mess about with a toy for a IC like the Viggen unit.

I second this notion. I have thew MP performance I/C It's works very well, the heat saok takes a lot longer to set in, and it gives a bit quicker access to the power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,901 Posts
However, if you don't have the cash for anything better, I still have my vig I/C, send me a PM if you would want to take it off my hands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,202 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,926 Posts
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top