[Thedriver]

Im trying to establish an easy way of testing and confirming any changes to the standard engine when you change exhaust parts or air filter parts or even ecu without going to a roll road

I know that an ecu upgrade gives xtra power but im firstly trying to see what happens without ecu change if possible to check this.
For example, people say that if you change the exhaust, air intake filter, pipes etc then you will gain some xtra power, or at least get a faster turbo spool up which as far as im concerned is still a power gain as you will be putting the same power on the road at a quicker pace . I am also aware that there may be no changes at all .

At this moment, i am concerned with the untuned engine and what are the effects of just changing the exhaust tail output to a sporty output then later, also the effects of changing the air filter box to a cone.

The bottom line is that if the exhaust or air intake is made more efficient, then it must have an effect on engine performance.

So i would like to put this idea to you about a possible method of measurement to check the changes to turbo spool up.

If i go along a flat road at 30mph in 5th gear, then floor it, i can monitor the speed , rev counter and boost gauge, ambient temperature and i could also use a stop watch to time this measurement.
What i would do is make a note of when the maximum boost is achieved, ie the boost gauge hits the red. ( im aware the boost gauge is ecu driven)

For example say my full boost is reached about 55mph and around 2000rpms , at a temp of 16 degrees here are my questions ....


If turbo spool up is improved, then what effect does it have on the following parameters

Time - It seems obvious that it will reach full boost in a quicker time
Speed - Will it also reach full boost at a lower speed ?
Rpms - Will it also reach full boost at lower rpms ?
Temperature - What effect will ambient temp have on the gauge full boost performance ?

 

[Chris 9-5]

I would bet you 50p that changing the back box will make absolutely no difference!

 

[Andyaero]

£40 to go on a dyno and test your results accurately.

So how much is your go faster max power back box then?:roll:

 

[Thedriver]

Only 50p


Ive carried out a quick timing of my car from 30 in 5th to full boost , which is about 55mph, about 1000rpm to 2000rpm and it takes 15 seconds on a perfect flat road with no wind .

I would be interested to hear your "tuned" cars performance from 30mph in 5th to full boost and what speed rpms this is achieved ? and anyone else with especially a standard manual aero or tuned aero.

keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel

Only really helpfull in low rev spool up comparisons i suppose

 

[Thedriver]

£40 to go on a dyno and test your results accurately.

So how much is your go faster max power back box then?:roll:

I dont think its any faster, its a little more soundy, but i would like to try and find a way of checking changes in turbo spool up if this is possible ?
I also am aware that it may have no effect whatsoever but there is no harm in experimentation for free

 

[aeropilot]

Im trying to establish an easy way of testing and confirming any changes to the standard engine when you change exhaust parts or air filter parts or even ecu without going to a roll road

I know that an ecu upgrade gives xtra power but im firstly trying to see what happens without ecu change if possible to check this.
For example, people say that if you change the exhaust, air intake filter, pipes etc then you will gain some xtra power, or at least get a faster turbo spool up which as far as im concerned is still a power gain as you will be putting the same power on the road at a quicker pace . I am also aware that there may be no changes at all .

These theories have all been talked about before on here at great length and often with great passion:roll: , suggest you do a search back through past threads.

Basically on an Aero, the hardware is just about on the limit, and any real power gains will only come with a software and hardware change, not a hardware change on it's own.

Yes, changing the exhaust will increase efficiency, at the expense of a little low end torque perhaps if you fit a free flowing downpipe.
Quicker spoolup isn't a power gain, it's just more response. More power needs more fuel/air.

However, we await any results you get with interest.

Keep us posted.

 

[Raven18940]

When I ran an open downpipe my butt dyno registered no increase in performance. The stock downpipe is the weak link in the exhaust chain, not the catback. I'll see what my car does for ya though.

 

[Kermit]

When I ran an open downpipe my butt dyno registered no increase in performance. The stock downpipe is the weak link in the exhaust chain, not the catback. I'll see what my car does for ya though.

If you eat more beans and pulses your butt dyno will notice the increased forward momentum.

 

[Guest]

Only 50p


Ive carried out a quick timing of my car from 30 in 5th to full boost , which is about 55mph, about 1000rpm to 2000rpm and it takes 15 seconds on a perfect flat road with no wind .

I would be interested to hear your "tuned" cars performance from 30mph in 5th to full boost and what speed rpms this is achieved ? and anyone else with especially a standard manual aero or tuned aero.

keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel

Only really helpfull in low rev spool up comparisons i suppose

Sorry, maybe I am being dense What do you mean by full boost? Are you talking boost pressure that you are reading from the aero dash gauge.?

 

[Thedriver]

Finn, yes I was talking about the boost gauge on dash going to its farthest point just inside the red area.

If this turbo boost gauge does not bear any relation to turbo spool up then the questions are void anyway. But if it is related to turbo spool ups, then I will be happy if anyone will answer any of the 3 questions asked



Ok Messrs Andy Aero and aeropilot sarcasm dudes , ive now decided that if your going to hit me with sarcy comments and not answer the questions raised, then im going to bite u back even harder :evil:
ANDY AERO:roll:
"So how much is your go faster max power back box then"?
Your last posts in this 9-5 forum have been mainly sarcy ! Is that because your brains on holiday like in your avatar picture ? Why dont you change the "No Tact" to "please donate me a brain cell and I might be able to answer a question"


AEROPILOT:roll:

These theories have all been talked about before on here at great length and often with great passion suggest you do a search back through past threads.

You show me where these 3 questions have been asked before ?

Basically on an Aero, the hardware is just about on the limit, and any real power gains will only come with a software and hardware change, not a hardware change on it's own.

There have been posters who claim to differ from this opinion, you show me the science to back up this statement or is it just a hijacked comment ?

Yes, changing the exhaust will increase efficiency, at the expense of a little low end torque perhaps if you fit a free flowing downpipe.

You actually said something constructive here


Quicker spoolup isn't a power gain, it's just more response.

Ok , if you measure a cars 0 to 100 mph acceleration time, then reduce the turbo spool up time, repeat the acceleration test, then it stands to reason that the car will be a little faster . The power and torque remain the same, but when you floor the throttle, then the quicker spool up transmits the power to the road at a faster pace which results in slightly improved acceleration

More power needs more fuel/air.
Wow I never knew that



However, we await any results you get with interest.

Wow another sincere comment

 

[Kermit]

Driver, chill out dude Mr AndyAero is only having fun with you. I know for a fact he drives a stg5 Maptun 9000, so incredible as it seems he does know an ickle bit about Saabs. :cheesy: Re the turbo gauge...its controlled by the ecu, its basically a placebo gauge that just shows your turbo is working, you can adjust the "swing" of the needle via Tech II so its not an accurate way of producing boost figures. Aeropilot is correct in saying its a much talked about subject, especially in the 900/9000 forums, its just relatively new to us 9-5er's.

 

[Guest]

Finn, yes I was talking about the boost gauge on dash going to its farthest point just inside the red area.

Got you now I dont think that the dash gauge is particularly accurate, so it might be difficult to get any conclusive results. I will be glad to give your test a bash and post the results but I am not sure it will be any relevance compared with your your car. I boost at 1.6bar which will be higher than yours. I dont have an aero so I dont have a dash gauge, however I do have an aftermarket boost gauge fitted. I dont believe you will feel any power or performance gains by changing just the cat back, if you do they will be minimal. The biggest exhaust change I made was the downpipe and cat.

Time - It seems obvious that it will reach full boost in a quicker time
Speed - Will it also reach full boost at a lower speed ?
Rpms - Will it also reach full boost at lower rpms ?
Temperature - What effect will ambient temp have on the gauge full boost performance ?

I can only guess at your questions as I had an ecu upgrade from the get go so mapping compensations were made for any hardware alterations.

Time: If you are changing just the back box I dont believe you will notice much difference only the noise.. The biggest difference will be downpipe and cat change.

Speed and Revs: Again just the back box minimal change, with bigger downpipe and a free flow cat then yes full boost at a lower speed. Speed and revs are related. So you will also reach full boost at lower revs.

Temperature: This has a massive effect on turbo boost. As you know the engine needs air and fuel in the right combination. On a hot day the 02 particules in the air are further apart requiring more air to achieve the same boost. Along with heat soak of the engine the ecu will retard boost if it cant hit its required air target. To give you an idea before I changed the I/C my cold weather boost of 1.6bar could go down to 1.1bar when hot..

Like the backbox a cone filter will not help to improve your performance just noise..

 

[aeropilot]

Jeez...you try and be helpful and all you get back is abuse.....nice.:evil:

 

[Thedriver]

Stay Cool Aeropilot, just a little bit of sarcasm with a sting

Im happy to be the subject of sarcasm, and i will even laugh at myself where appropriate, but now and then, if the sarcasm hits the wrong tone, then im gonna wheel out my big guns and fire some heavy:roll: back .

Aero Boost gauge - I understand that the boost gauge is ecu driven, and that the actual boost pressure will vary with air temperatures. And finns actual boost pressure gauge would be more helpfull in illustrating boost status.


But the questions now are :-

Even if you can adjust the aero boost gauge with tech 2, it must still operate via data sensor measurements regarding turbo boosting, and therefore there must be a proportional relationship between the gauge and the boost status. When this gauge reaches its red position then surely it signifies that max spool up velocity is completed and current max boost is taking place ?

So as i mentioned earlier, if on a day with 16 degrees c, i go along at 30mph in 5th gear, then floor the throttle, on a flat road, it takes 15 seconds for gauge to max out at around 55mph, Can i then make the following turbo spool up statement.
At 16c, from 30mph in 5th, turbo spool up to full boost takes 15 secs and occurs at 55mph

I could then carry out the same test at different temperatures to see if a relationship can be plotted between temperature change and time for boost gauge to max out.

After plotting several different temperatures, then i can change some exhaust parts or air filter parts and the tests repeated to see what effects were occuring to turbo spool up times at low revs in high gear.

Looking at the engine as an air pump, then any changes to input or output flow characteristics should produce an effect on turbo spool up , subtle or more obvious , but always some effect .

I am going to get me a stopwatch so i can accurately time my dash videos.

Any scientific comments welcome and sarcas if you must, but expect retaliations

 

[Andyaero]

Sarcasm, irony, whimsy, lampooning, mockery, banter , satire, call it what you will, as demonstrated by:

£40 to go on a dyno and test your results accurately.

So how much is your go faster max power back box then?:roll:

Personal abuse as demonstrated by:

Is that because your brains on holiday like in your avatar picture ? Why dont you change the "No Tact" to "please donate me a brain cell and I might be able to answer a question"

Now, I too can do personal abuse matey, but perhaps we're going off tack a little:nono;

 

[Chris 9-5]

Whilst its ok to have different opinions, and to voice them its not ok to attack each other personally, I appreciate we are all very passionate about our cars but people are more important, so lets be civil at least

 

[Vigge]

TheDriver,

the "turbo" gauge is more in reltaion with the MAF signal than plain boost, more like the calculated airmass/combustion value. Of course airmass and boost have a relation... but airmass will stay pretty much same on these car up to some degree while boost will vary alot. Looking into plain boost does not really tell you much, if measurements are not carried out right after one and another and repeated many times to eliminate "trionics" adaption and environmetal changes.

If you want to do your studies, I would suggest you look into the MAF directly, you'll need a oscilloscope or similar to measure the frequency. You can the plot airmass vs. time under WOT acceleration before and after mods starting from cruise. From slope you can then determine if the spoolup has been changed for better or worse. OBD logger will most like give you false reading due to re-fresh rate. The OBD will be more accurate if the run is carried out in high gear and repaeted a few times.
My 0.02

 

[ragtopcav]

Get one of those little accelerometer guage thingummies that attach to your dash'; though not calibrated, if used on the same car again and again they'll give a picture of what the power is looking like.

On the backbox thing, a poor choice can slow a car down not speed them up, caveat emptor.

 

[Thedriver]

Vigge - appreciate those comments and will look more into that .

Ragtop - this is true on the accelero thing which i usd to have but sold. And i agree about the back box potential worsening possibilities which is why im now keen to find some simple way of comparing airflow alterations against spool up times.

Andy aero - Sarcasm can be healthy or insulting depending on the interpretation by the person at the receiving end of it.
Im not accusing you of personalabuse as we are not personally aquainted, merely 2 public personas on a public forum , i was just launching what i would term healthy sarcasm back at you.
If my comments have made you throw your toys out of the pram, then i do apologise, but its difficult to accept that someone who puts out a good lot of sarcasm cannot take it back :nono;

Get yourself a good "Bill Hicks" video and that will put the smile back on your face

 

[Raven18940]

I ran my car today from 30 in 5th and it reach full boost at 55 mph. My car is stock except for the open element intake and colder spark plugs.