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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Has anyone investigated or is using toluol injection? I have all the bits necessary to build a simple water injection system but i have been considering using toluol as a better alternative for a while.

From what i have read, toluol is alot more forgiving when it comes to getting the mixture right, and is an excellent resistance to detonation, with water/methanol it is very easy to inject to much or too little, as you want to ensure that you get a even distribution through the cylinders you usually have to inject more than actually necessary which in some cases may start robbing too much energy from the combustion process.

Also, i have read several words of caution regarding methanol, it can oxidise forming formaldehyde and will also attack aluminium in the engine, so although toluol vapor is probably carcinogenic, it'll be no more than fuel.

I've got a 120-150cc per min injector and a solenoid valve, im thinking of then using a pressure regulator to raise the injection pressure with boost, and then have a pressure switch triggering the pump and solenoid at around 0.5 bar. I'll tap the elbow before the throttle so the injector sprays straight onto the throttle plate, hopefully this will aid atomisation and ensure even distribution between the cylinders.

Can anyone advise how much the stock T5 ECU can adjust timing and boost, if the conditions are right with no detonation, how much will the ECU be able to advance the timing and increase boost for maximum power? Or is it tuned more to prevent detonation (reducing boost and retarding timing when knock occurs).

Any input would be gratefully received.
 

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You mean toluene (current name) and if, for some reason, you really do NOT want to just add it to the fuel tank (which you can do with Toluene), then you're better off with a water/meth mix. Toluene has a lower vapor pressure, making it HARDER to get the mix right between cylinders because it will still be in droplet form, it still eats up seals if you use it alone, without diluting it with gasoline (though not as bad as meth), and it does almost NO cooling compared to meth, or especially, compared to WATER. :suprised;

However, with Toluene, you can simply ADD IT TO YOUR FUEL TANK! A couple gallons of Toluene or Xylene in a full tank can take 91 AON and raise it to 95-100! (depending on which Xylene, if not Toluene, and tank size) This is because, despite not doing much cooling, which is the primary "effective" octane advantage of meth/water, its BLENDING OCTANE number is quite high (it acts like 118 AON for Toluene, and 112-143 AON for various Xylenes, though Toluene is safer) and, unlike methanol, IT WILL NOT SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT AIR/FUEL RATIO IF ADDED STRAIGHT TO THE FUEL. Maybe slightly, but very little. It also will not attack your fuel pump, or seals even NEAR as ferrociously as methanol would, if added to the tank. (in other words, you can't add much methanol right in with the fuel safely, but you CAN do that with Toluene)

Toluene is MUCH harder to get than Xylene, but it is safer for your engine, tank, pump and lines as it is less corrosive and ignites more easily (so it doesn't cause misfires as readily). It is harder to get because it's the primary ingredient in TriNitroToluene (aka TNT :eek: aka trinitromethylbenzene). Whereas, Xylene is commonly found at Lowe's, with the paint removers, but is much harder on fuel seals, pumps and inectors (and has a lower mixing limit before you get misfires, though I've done 4 gallons in a 17 galon tank safely). Still, I have used it without trouble for 5-6 tanks @ 2 gallons/tank in the past. I just would not make a habit of it unless you want to buy teflon lines, and seals.

BLENDING OCTANE NUMBERS (as in added to the fuel, because if allowed to evaporate way up in the air-stream like a WI injector, which is what helps out methanol, these numbers can often drasticaly change) FOR SOME COMMON CHEMICALS:

Chemical: RON / AON / MON (RON for the Europeans, AON for the Americans, and MON for anyone else who knows that this number is more important for high specific output engines, when blending with fuel and not evaporating (for a number of reasons, but mainly because the test was on an engine under more load, with hotter coolant, and a controlled intake temperature))

Shell "91 Octane": 96 / 91 / 87
Iso-Octane: 100 / 100 / 100 (by definition!)
Toluene: 124 / 118 / 112
Ortho-Xylene: 122 / 112 / 102
Para-Xylene: 155 / 141 / 126
Meta-Xylene: 162 / 143 / 124
Cyclopentene: 171 / 149 / 126
Benzene: 98 / 95 / 91
Cyclohexane: 110 / 104 / 97
Cyclopentane: 141 / 141 / 141
Butane: 113 / 114 / 114 (gasseous)
dicycloepentadiene: 229 / 198 / 167 (OMG shoes! :lol: )

Methanol: 133 / 119 / 105
Ethanol: 129 / 116 / 102 (beer! :lol: )
Iso-Propyl Alky: 118 / 108 / 98 (rubbing alcohol)

Some stuff in Diesel Fuel and/or Kerosene (and in your PCV fumes, which is why catch-cans help so much):

Heptane: 0 / 0 / 0 (by definition!) used to bring Toluene "down" to 100 RON, and help it ignite more easily, in old turbo Formula One 1.5L 1,000+ hp engines ... the mixture termed "Rocket Fuel" (just remember ... those engines blew up every other race ... so I wouldn't try this at home, unless you have a spare engine and turbo that can boost 70+ psi!)

Yes, the following numbers are negatives ...

Decane: -41 / -39 / -38
Dodecane: -88 / -89 / -90
Tetradecane: -90 / -94 / -99

Anyway ... back to your regularly scheduled programming. Just remember not to use more than 2-3 gallons/tank of Xylene, or 4-5 gallons/tank Toluene!! And try the other chemicals AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Read first: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/preamble.html
 

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Adrian W said:
You mean toluene (current name) and if, for some reason, you really do NOT want to just add it to the fuel tank (which you can do with Toluene), then you're better off with a water/meth mix. Toluene has a lower vapor pressure, making it HARDER to get the mix right between cylinders because it will still be in droplet form, it still eats up seals if you use it alone, without diluting it with gasoline (though not as bad as meth), and it does almost NO cooling compared to meth, or especially, compared to WATER. :suprised;

However, with Toluene, you can simply ADD IT TO YOUR FUEL TANK! A couple gallons of Toluene or Xylene in a full tank can take 91 AON and raise it to 95-100! (depending on which Xylene, if not Toluene, and tank size) This is because, despite not doing much cooling, which is the primary "effective" octane advantage of meth/water, its BLENDING OCTANE number is quite high (it acts like 118 AON for Toluene, and 112-143 AON for various Xylenes, though Toluene is safer) and, unlike methanol, IT WILL NOT SIGNIFICANTLY AFFECT AIR/FUEL RATIO IF ADDED STRAIGHT TO THE FUEL. Maybe slightly, but very little. It also will not attack your fuel pump, or seals even NEAR as ferrociously as methanol would, if added to the tank. (in other words, you can't add much methanol right in with the fuel safely, but you CAN do that with Toluene)

Toluene is MUCH harder to get than Xylene, but it is safer for your engine, tank, pump and lines as it is less corrosive and ignites more easily (so it doesn't cause misfires as readily). It is harder to get because it's the primary ingredient in TriNitroToluene (aka TNT :eek: aka trinitromethylbenzene). Whereas, Xylene is commonly found at Lowe's, with the paint removers, but is much harder on fuel seals, pumps and inectors (and has a lower mixing limit before you get misfires, though I've done 4 gallons in a 17 galon tank safely). Still, I have used it without trouble for 5-6 tanks @ 2 gallons/tank in the past. I just would not make a habit of it unless you want to buy teflon lines, and seals.

BLENDING OCTANE NUMBERS (as in added to the fuel, because if allowed to evaporate way up in the air-stream like a WI injector, which is what helps out methanol, these numbers can often drasticaly change) FOR SOME COMMON CHEMICALS:

Chemical: RON / AON / MON (RON for the Europeans, AON for the Americans, and MON for anyone else who knows that this number is more important for high specific output engines, when blending with fuel and not evaporating (for a number of reasons, but mainly because the test was on an engine under more load, with hotter coolant, and a controlled intake temperature))

Shell "91 Octane": 96 / 91 / 87
Iso-Octane: 100 / 100 / 100 (by definition!)
Toluene: 124 / 118 / 112
Ortho-Xylene: 122 / 112 / 102
Para-Xylene: 155 / 141 / 126
Meta-Xylene: 162 / 143 / 124
Cyclopentene: 171 / 149 / 126
Benzene: 98 / 95 / 91
Cyclohexane: 110 / 104 / 97
Cyclopentane: 141 / 141 / 141
Butane: 113 / 114 / 114 (gasseous)
dicycloepentadiene: 229 / 198 / 167 (OMG shoes! :lol: )

Methanol: 133 / 119 / 105
Ethanol: 129 / 116 / 102 (beer! :lol: )
Iso-Propyl Alky: 118 / 108 / 98 (rubbing alcohol)

Some stuff in Diesel Fuel and/or Kerosene (and in your PCV fumes, which is why catch-cans help so much):

Heptane: 0 / 0 / 0 (by definition!) used to bring Toluene "down" to 100 RON, and help it ignite more easily, in old turbo Formula One 1.5L 1,000+ hp engines ... the mixture termed "Rocket Fuel" (just remember ... those engines blew up every other race ... so I wouldn't try this at home, unless you have a spare engine and turbo that can boost 70+ psi!)

Yes, the following numbers are negatives ...

Decane: -41 / -39 / -38
Dodecane: -88 / -89 / -90
Tetradecane: -90 / -94 / -99

Anyway ... back to your regularly scheduled programming. Just remember not to use more than 2-3 gallons/tank of Xylene, or 4-5 gallons/tank Toluene!! And try the other chemicals AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Read first: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/preamble.html

to my understanding pure xylene has a higher AON rating

also toluene was referred to as toluol, the good thing about that is that it is commonly used in terperntine, and other solvents, look for one thats most pure
 

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Adiran, that may have been the most informative and thorough post I've ever read. No bs, no extras, just pure easy to comprehend facts.


I commend you my friend.
 

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TROLLhattenschatten said:
?! Why is this not incorporated into hybrid technology then?
theres some speculation that acetone can dissolve important fuel lines, but i've seen only ever seen test supporting that it won't

there also the conspericy theorist that claim big oil is covering up acetone's true result becuase acetone can help fuel economy too

mythbusters test it and got no real results, but than again i find amost ever test mythbusters has done to be flawed and cannot be taken for more than face value as entertainment

I've never run it in the saab, partically due to laziness, but because i've never seen a significant enough gain in any fuel savings to justify buying it on that occasion

if you would like to test it remeber no more than 3 oz's per 10 gallons of gas
 

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TROLLhattenschatten said:
?! Why is this not incorporated into hybrid technology then?
oh you also have to realize that acetone if proven to increase fuel mileage would have to be supplied by the gas companys into the final product

car companys have no say over what fuels are available to the consumer
 

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9-3sleeper said:
Adiran, that may have been the most informative and thorough post I've ever read. No bs, no extras, just pure easy to comprehend facts.


I commend you my friend.
Why thank you. I don't always succeed at keeping out B.S., but I do try as best I can and I'm glad it's appreciated.

Posts like this one below, which was clearly not at all researched, and could have been avoided by merely looking up how many forms of Xylene actually existed, all three of which I listed, tend to irk me a little. Just looking up the chemical structure should immediately reveal that there are exactly three isomers.

mfyoung ... I've nothing against you personally, but this post couldn't have been one of your better ones, and it just confuses people into thinking there's a "pure" form of Xylene, which makes no sense, and perpetuates what appears to be an urban legend of sorts, though I've never heard it.

It's ok though, it's not uncommon for people to believe that a mix of benzene-ring isomers (in this case), or a racemic of enantiomer's ((nonsuperimposable stereoisomers), in the case of many medicines/drugs), has a "pure", and "simple", form ... which is, in reality, just the collective name for the group of similar chemicals.

As an example, ibuprofen (Advil, Ipren, etc) has no "pure" form because there are two nonsuperimposable stereoisomer's. So "ibuprofen" is actually two different chemicals. (in fact, only one is active in your body stopping pain, but the other is converted into the active one via enzyme, lucky for you, unlike the case for naproxen sodium)

Hope that makes sense.

mfyoung said:
to my understanding pure xylene has a higher AON rating
Considering that a fourth, "pure Xylene", cannot exist ... that's obviously not the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylene

I listed the only three which do. Also, by definition of "blending octane", any mixture of the three will have less of ANY octane measurement than the highest singular one contributing to that mixture.

mfyoung said:
also toluene was referred to as toluol, the good thing about that is that it is commonly used in terperntine, and other solvents, look for one thats most pure
If only they listed the Xylene ratios! But you can buy what, according to the blue metal can, is "pure Xylene" (which should make you laugh by now) at Lowes for, last time I checked, $15 a gallon or so in single gallon cans (or lots cheaper certain places in a 5+ gallon drum), but in either case, there's no way to know what the ratio is ... so you can only approximate it by density and hope there's lots of the meta. (meta and para have the same density, but meta has a higher octane rating)

-Adrian
 

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Adrian W said:
Why thank you. I don't always succeed at keeping out B.S., but I do try as best I can and I'm glad it's appreciated.

Posts like this one below, which was clearly not at all researched, and could have been avoided by merely looking up how many forms of Xylene actually existed, all three of which I listed, tend to irk me a little. Just looking up the chemical structure should immediately reveal that there are exactly three isomers.

mfyoung ... I've nothing against you personally, but this post couldn't have been one of your better ones, and it just confuses people into thinking there's a "pure" form of Xylene, which makes no sense, and perpetuates what appears to be an urban legend of sorts, though I've never heard it.

It's ok though, it's not uncommon for people to believe that a mix of benzene-ring isomers (in this case), or a racemic of enantiomer's ((nonsuperimposable stereoisomers), in the case of many medicines/drugs), has a "pure", and "simple", form ... which is, in reality, just the collective name for the group of similar chemicals.

As an example, ibuprofen (Advil, Ipren, etc) has no "pure" form because there are two nonsuperimposable stereoisomer's. So "ibuprofen" is actually two different chemicals. (in fact, only one is active in your body stopping pain, but the other is converted into the active one via enzyme, lucky for you, unlike the case for naproxen sodium)

Hope that makes sense.



Considering that a fourth, "pure Xylene", cannot exist ... that's obviously not the case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylene

I listed the only three which do. Also, by definition of "blending octane", any mixture of the three will have less of ANY octane measurement than the highest singular one contributing to that mixture.



If only they listed the Xylene ratios! But you can buy what, according to the blue metal can, is "pure Xylene" (which should make you laugh by now) at Lowes for, last time I checked, $15 a gallon or so in single gallon cans (or lots cheaper certain places in a 5+ gallon drum), but in either case, there's no way to know what the ratio is ... so you can only approximate it by density and hope there's lots of the meta. (meta and para have the same density, but meta has a higher octane rating)

-Adrian
well thanks for the correction, like stated i thought, wasn't sure lol, i had no idea it was a form of benzene lol, and that the meta and para refer to the carbon atom to which it is attached

Thanks for the correction
 

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mfyoung said:
well thanks for the correction, like stated i thought, wasn't sure lol, i had no idea it was a form of benzene lol, and that the meta and para refer to the carbon atom to which it is attached

Thanks for the correction
No worries. As we all have to say to ourselves sometimes, "It happens." :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The pic below was thought to be the result of adding a Gallon of Xylene to the tank:eek: I think the car was in the 400bhp region, this happened on the 2nd or 3rd lap! Con rod through the block!

Toluol/Tolulene (auz/us/uk have slightly different terminology) is actually suggested as a good alternative to water/meths by Graham A Bell in Forced Induction Performance tuning, he is a highly respected author and tuner, many people rate his book highly.

Definitely worth while bringing as much info into the thread about additives as possible though to help us all make informed decisions or at least provide avenues of research to look into.

Tolulene/toluol is available but expensive , over here i think it's about £5-10 per litre, you need to find a friendly school chemistry department supplier, i have found places that sell it on the net but not ordered any yet.

TBH i would prefer to inject it separately to fuel, with regard to any additive as you can switch it off if the car is not happy, where as draining a tank of fuel is a bit more of a PITA, and theoretically you should be able to adjust the mix a bit better, and how much it injects at different boost pressures.

I will probably build the injection system then see if i can try different additives and see which gives the best atomization before actually running it in the car.


 

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Si said:
The pic below was thought to be the result of adding a Gallon of Xylene to the tank:eek:
To clarify a few things:

Gasoline contains about 20% aromatics (benzene, toluene, and xylene). Ten years ago, premium gasoline used to contain 40% aromatics or more. Benzene content is less than 1% because it is carcinogenic. Toluene and xylene have not been shown to be carcinogenic, but they can be contaminated with a small percentage of benzene.

Since every day pump gasoline has so much aromatics in it, I am highly skeptical of the assertion that a gallon of xylene in a 15 gallon tank was the cause of throwing a rod through the block. I could believe that it happened just after the xylene was added, but I don't think the xylene was the cause.

By the way, since Adrian didn't come right out and say it directly, toluene is a benzene ring with one extra methyl (carbon) group hanging on it. Xylene is a benzene ring with two methyl groups, and the terms ortho-, meta-, and paraxylene define the positions of the methyl groups. Chemically, these compounds are very closely related, and they act about the same in the gas tank and in the combustion chamber.

I'm surprised to hear that xylene is substantially more corrosive than toluene, but Adrian seems to do his research, so I can accept it, subject to further research.

Neither turpentine nor mineral spirits have toluene in them. Turpentine is distilled from pine tree resin. Mineral spirits are straight chain hydrocarbons with about six carbon molecules, and are very low octane. I would never pour either of these in my gas tank.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on gasoline chemistry. However, I do have a bit more knowledge than the average motorist. I have a degree in chemical engineering, and my job is designing advanced control systems. Years ago, I did some work on control systems for gasoline blending. I'm currently working in a major refinery implementing advanced control of a fluid catalytic cracking unit that makes about 2 million gallons a day of gasoline blending stock. (The refinery produces over 5 million gallons of gasoline per day.)

Another thing I'm not an expert on is charge cooling systems like water/methanol injection. But engineering judgement suggests that the design of such a system must consider not just atomization, but also the latent heat of vaporization of the stuff you inject, since that's what provides the cooling. The latent heat of water is much higher than that of hydrocarbons.
 

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Si said:
The pic below was thought to be the result of adding a Gallon of Xylene to the tank:eek: I think the car was in the 400bhp region, this happened on the 2nd or 3rd lap! Con rod through the block!
As Viggen Dave said, I doubt this was the cause, except if the person "upped" the boost TOO much, thinking the Xylene would help increase octane more than it did.

Otherwise, "post hoc, ergo, propter hoc", because there is, normally, far more than one gallon of either Toluene or Xylene in gasoline, but it varies from brand to brand by more than one gallon per tank. So just switching brands would then do the same thing,

Si said:
Toluol/Tolulene (auz/us/uk have slightly different terminology) is actually suggested as a good alternative to water/meths by Graham A Bell in Forced Induction Performance tuning, he is a highly respected author and tuner, many people rate his book highly.
Read it, digested it, it's still quite old but good. Toluene just isn't as good as meth/water. It's not "bad". As I said, it won't evaporate as easily, and won't absorb NEARLY as much heat from the air as the latent heat is FAR lower than either methanol, or, especially, water.

I didn't mean to come across as saying it was not going to work; it just won't work as well, and only slightly better than putting it in the tank, which would save a lot of complexity by comparison. That's all.

Si said:
Tolulene/toluol is available but expensive , over here i think it's about £5-10 per litre, you need to find a friendly school chemistry department supplier, i have found places that sell it on the net but not ordered any yet.
It's harder to get here in the US, I believe. It used to be easy, but now, even paint suppliers won't sell it to you without a license. ("land of the free" my azz) I've had a heck of a time, but also live in California, which is stricter still. In other states and countries, I'm sure it's not as bad.

Si said:
TBH i would prefer to inject it separately to fuel, with regard to any additive as you can switch it off if the car is not happy, where as draining a tank of fuel is a bit more of a PITA, and theoretically you should be able to adjust the mix a bit better, and how much it injects at different boost pressures.

I will probably build the injection system then see if i can try different additives and see which gives the best atomization before actually running it in the car.
Well there's no harm in that, but methanol, because of its low boiling point, higher (but much lower than water) latent heat, and high vapor pressure, will always atomize better than Toluene, or Xylene, as well as most other aromatics, or Olefins.

Also remember that you may not want to have a flammable "extra" tank of additives in your trunk, and 50meth/50water is NOT FLAMMABLE. (or at least not supposed to be- maybe borderline flammable, if very warm)

So that's a HUGE downside to Toluene in a seperate tank like meth/water, as I'd be quite nervous with a tank of flammable liquid in MY trunk/boot.

Something to keep it mind ... heh

-Adrian

p.s. Xylene isn't drastically more corrosive than Toluene in general, but, from everything I've heard, it's much worse on the type of rubber used in most car's fuel seals. According to a friend who used to work for one of the big gas plants as chemical engineer working on additives (surfactants, though, not octane additives) packages, that is the reason there is normally more Toluene than Xylene (apart from it being simpler, chemically) in gasoline, normally.

I don't have any hard data on that, though. I doubt anyone could, since fuel seals have changed so much in recent years, and do change from car brand to brand, changing how each car might react.
 
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