SaabCentral Forums banner
1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2004 9-5 Arc Wagon Sport-Combi 2.3T

I have a good one for you all and any help is much appreciated.
I have taken on the role of Mechanic for my Saab since the ones at the repair shops where I have taken it seem to mess up more than they fix. I figure I can do that much.

The issue I am having with the car is a starting issue.
The car powers up and turns over when I turn the key no problem, and it even starts up, but once it starts, it will initially rev then will immediately bog out, the engine will stop running.

As of today the car starts on the second or third attempt (after a bit of cranking over) and stays running. When running it runs fine, even when stopped at a light, or idling.

Having searched the forum I believe have ruled out some of the usual suspects:
1) CPS had it tested (checked, replaced problem still exists)
2) I had the fuel pump checked and the mechanic seemed to rule that out too.
3) I cleaned the throttle body from the top. I did not remove the throttle body from the intake manifold for cleaning. I used choke cleaner and a toothbrush, and got the inside of the TB inc. butterfly sparkling. I replaced the o-ring between the TB and the air intake hose (the old one was completely stretched out and not where it was supposed to be). The car was a bit tough to start after that but once it did start, I took it out for a 210 mile drive and worked the intake pretty good (up to just over 100 mph on the open road). Aside from a slight wobble which I am going to attribute to a wheel balance problem the car handled admirably.

I had really high hopes for the TB cleaning and o-ring replacement as a fix but alas I still have the starting problem.

To complicate things or possibly clarify a bit, it seems that the starting problem happens when the temperature is warm (warm being ~50 deg F or greater). During the past cold snap that car seemed to start fine on the first turn of the key, but if the outside temp is above 50 the problem seems to show up. THIS MAY BE A RED HERRING, but maybe not, I will be paying close attention to the outside sir temp in the comming weeks to see if my theory has any validity. Hopefully I will have the problem fixed by then though.

I have a few thoughts for my next moves:
1) clean the Mass Airflow Sensor
2) use a fuel additive to clean the fuel intake system (injector cleaner or such)
3) I just read on a separate thread about an air temp sensor.

But after these 3 things, I must admit I am completely lost as to what could be the culprit.

Any thoughts on what my next course of action should be?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,380 Posts
It may just be a winter/summer fuel blend issue. I had a lot of trouble with my 2004 Aero last spring when they switched to summer gas and it was still cool out. Does this look familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ3_la71bk0

I was also on my original battery which failed hardcore shortly after this. Once I got a new batter in there it started up fine. So you could have a battery issue, or it may just be a fuel related thing that will go away once they switch to the summer blends of gas. In the spring/fall you will see a lot of these types of posts as the weather changes and the fuel blends don't, or as the fuel blends change, and the weather stays the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
If it's any consolation, these symptoms mean your car is running rich. You just need to find out why it thinks it's getting too much air or too little gas.

A dirty MAF normally causes the car to run lean. The O2 sensor doesn't kick in on cold start. This pretty much rules out the car thinking it's getting too much air.

A fuel pressure test would tell you if you have a leaky injector or your fuel pressure is too high (bad regulator).

In regards to "starting on the second or third attempt" is this after the car has warmed up? If so, hold the accelerator pedal to the floor while starting it. The car should start right up.

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I was also on my original battery which failed hardcore shortly after this. Once I got a new battery in there it started up fine. So you could have a battery issue, or it may just be a fuel related thing that will go away once they switch to the summer blends of gas. In the spring/fall you will see a lot of these types of posts as the weather changes and the fuel blends don't, or as the fuel blends change, and the weather stays the same.
.
I did have a new battery put in, thank you. This is interesting, because at one point in time last fall I swore that if I filled up at a particular station the car started fine. Is there a fuel additive that would help in these cases?


In regards to "starting on the second or third attempt" is this after the car has warmed up? If so, hold the accelerator pedal to the floor while starting it. The car should start right up.

.
No, not after the car has warmed up. By "the second or third attempt", I mean immediately after the car conked out after the first turn of the key.

BTW yesterday leaving work and this morning the car started on the first turn of the key. This is one of those problems that is intermittent enough to have me scratching my head. I have a hard time recreating the issue.

I like your suggestion of a fuel pressure test, I will check my records to see if that has been done, and either way have it checked again. But wouldn't that cause the problem consistently?

Would a fuel injector cleaner additive help? and are they safe to use in the car?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
I had this problem with my 9-5 a few months ago. It would crank and start but then would idle extremely rough and eventually die. The second start would be normal in every way though. Like your problem, mine was intermittent as well. I ended up changing the fuel filter and cleaning the TB. The car starts fine now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
If it's not consistent, then it's prolly not the fuel system pressure/volume. Nor will it be a problem with the fuel itself. Fuel system cleaner wouldn't help.

I would tackle the TB again looking for a sticking throttle plate or bad throttle position sensor. Taking off the TB is not that difficult, the hardest part being plugging the coolant hoses. Check under the servo motor cover for the infamous bare wires. Be careful removing the cover. The tabs are easy to break. I also recommend checking the white, one way valve to the PCV system while you're in there. It wouldn't be related to your current problem, but they do seem to go bad well before they should.

If it happens again before you take another look at the TB, there are some things you can try. Put the accelerator pedal about half way down while cranking and see if it starts easier. This will activate the servo, possibly unsticking a stuck throttle plate and/or move the TPS off a dead zone. You could get your hands dirty removing the limp home mode cover and manually moving the throttle plate.

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Starting Problems

We have been having similar problems with our 2003 9-5 Aero wagon. Going out first thing in the morning the car would start, then it would stall and it would be very difficult to get started again. The dealer has it in the shop right now (picking it up later today). They have said that the crank angle sensor is, "out of range," and that this will solve the starting issue. We are also having a temporary lack of power during driving, they are pointing to the Throttle Body Sensor as the culprit in this case.

They have an old time Saab mechanic on staff and I trust his judgement. I hope this solves our problem.

I am a new member and have found the information in the forum topics to be very interesting.

Regards,
Mike (jenn109)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Update

Cleaned the MAF last weekend. The car runs good with seemingly better performance. The car has started on the first turn of the key since I cleaned the MAF; HOWEVER, it has not been over 60 deg, since then.

I have been keeping track of the start / no-start on first turn of the key and so far I have found that if the Temp is over 60 the car may not start but in the 40's and low 50's that car starts fine. Now I am just waiting for the Temperature to get into the '60's (SUN and Monday I may get a chance to test this theory some more).

I will update again next week.

-R
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Bad News

Today, With ambient air temp ranging from 60-65 deg F the car does not stay running after the first turn of the key.
She starts and then bogs out.

It started fine this morning on my way to work. but leaving for lunch and then leaving from lunch back to work she was giving me difficulty.

The car does start and stay running on the second turn of the key.
I am beginning to believe that ambient air temperature is a key factor, since yesterday the car started fine all day along and the temps were below 57 deg F.
This seems to be the cutoff point warmer than 57-62 the car has starting problems, cooler everything is fine.

Can someone point me to any sensors and their locations that I can check / clean/ replace that would be temperature dependent?

-R
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top