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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I plan on buying the stage 3 from genuinesaab.com, but right now I dont even have the viggen intercooler. If I buy the ecu with I have to get it retuned when I get an intercooler?
 

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Absolutly, the stock i/c is horribly restrictive. Even the viggen one will be killing your performance when you're running a stg 3.
 

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Warumono said:
I plan on buying the stage 3 from genuinesaab.com, but right now I dont even have the viggen intercooler. If I buy the ecu with I have to get it retuned when I get an intercooler?
A re-tune is not absolutely neccesary.

After install, re-set everything by disconnecting the battery, then go out and do some runs. ECU will re-adapt.
 

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Suggest getting all your hardware sorted first before contemplating software upgrades... makes sense to do it in this order, rather than software and then try and make it run properly with restricting stock parts.

GS sell some nice i/cs... the Forge and recently stock the ETS.

sab
 

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9-3sleeper said:
Absolutly, the stock i/c is horribly restrictive. Even the viggen one will be killing your performance when you're running a stg 3.
false-ness.

Your car will run rich, and when the ECU sees the intake temps climb, it will add fuel/pull timing/pull boost.

I wouldn't do full-on pulls because you WILL eventually heat-soak the IC...
just go easy on it until you get the IC
 

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9-3sleeper said:
Absolutly, the stock i/c is horribly restrictive. Even the viggen one will be killing your performance when you're running a stg 3.
I ran the Viggen intercooler for a year before switching to the MP and it certainly did not kill performance.

The only measurable difference between the two was the resistance to heatsoak with MP. I can now make multiple pulls before the intercooler gets too hot and the ECU starts to pull timing. I don't know about your tuner, but Jak asked very specific questions about my IC setup before sending my stage 3 ECU, and then reflashed it once I got the MP.
 

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9-3sleeper said:
Absolutly, the stock i/c is horribly restrictive. Even the viggen one will be killing your performance when you're running a stg 3.
Don't know why everyone is bashing this response. It's very true and we have proof to show it.
Just ask NahumCC on here. He has a 99 9-3 with jak's stage 3 software... stock intercooler, however. This showed in his dyno runs as he only pulled about 200 whp.
When we went to genuinesaab last weekend he got the viggen intercooler as a stop-gap until the forged. Nick himself said with an upgraded forged intercooler his power will drastically increase... he should be looking at 250 whp or so. So yes, the viggen one will be "killing your performance" with stage 3 b/c it isn't allowing your software to run to its full potential.
With software the best intercooler you can buy will absolutely have an effect on performance... and the worst will be holding it back.
 

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The viggen IC will support one "short" WOT in run 3rd gear and if the day is hot not the std turbo will not support much more either...
 

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If you're saying 250WHP on a dynojet with a forge... it's exactly the same as my Viggen IC'd stage-3...AFTER I lost power with the SQR Ecu.Hell, my MBC+K&N panel alone (stock exhaust, stock HOT ECU) made 228WHP/250lb/ft on a dynojet.

I'm not buying it.
Viggen IC is fine. almost nobody here drives their cars as hard as I do.
I've never seen a power-loss being Viggen IC-only. and it will hit 100* here with humidity around 80%
 

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Nahum ran jsp software and replaced it with nordic (just to see) after the suprising dynojet run. Same numbers. Not to mention it wasn't a mustang dyno or anything, it was specifically calibrated by GS to be used for Saabs. The error rate is like 1-3 hp for that. And he put those numbers down with an upgraded turbo, no less.

Nick and the other mechanics were adamant that his loss of hp was due to the fact that he had a dual pass IC. The viggen will certainly work better but apparently will not perform on the same level of a forge. Just going by dyno I watched and then saw in a graph afterward. 207 whp. Pushing about 20 psi. Intake temps were also high... If you have a map of the same hp being produced with a viggen IC versus a forge for stage 3 I would like to see it. (not being sarcastic, but it will help me as I won't spend the money on a better IC if it wasn't worth it.)
 

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This is stock software + MBC + 3" TBE... adding the SQR ECU allowed me to run 19psi instead of 17, but no gain of HP



 

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G96nt said:
I'm not buying it.
Viggen IC is fine. almost nobody here drives their cars as hard as I do.
I've never seen a power-loss being Viggen IC-only. and it will hit 100* here with humidity around 80%
if you have never seen power loss with a viggen intercooler then maybe you should reevaluate just how much of a hard driver you actually are. viggen intercoolers do, indeed, heat soak rather easily and yes, performance will suffer.
dave
 

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9-3sleeper said:
Absolutly, the stock i/c is horribly restrictive. Even the viggen one will be killing your performance when you're running a stg 3.
But he asked if he would have to get a "re-tune" and you said absolutely. He does not have to get a re-tune, he can just get the stage 3sw now and put the better ic on later. It will make less hp with stock or viggen ic and cause it to pull more timing and richen it up more. Once he gets the better ic on the car, he can do some adaptation pulls and it will adapt for the new hw.

Most people consider this a little dangerous because you have to rely on the ecu to pull boost and timing and keep the motor safe. Its much smarter to just put the good hw on first and then add the sw and then if things are off a little, you have a higher safety margin.

If you took it fairly easy on it, no long wot pulls, you would probably be fine. You have to use some common sense and think of the basics... Let the motor breath and get some cool dense air into the engine. Intake, exhaust, IC and sw make a great combo!

John
 

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G96nt said:
If you're saying 250WHP on a dynojet with a forge... it's exactly the same as my Viggen IC'd stage-3...AFTER I lost power with the SQR Ecu.Hell, my MBC+K&N panel alone (stock exhaust, stock HOT ECU) made 228WHP/250lb/ft on a dynojet.

I'm not buying it.
Viggen IC is fine. almost nobody here drives their cars as hard as I do.
I've never seen a power-loss being Viggen IC-only. and it will hit 100* here with humidity around 80%
Come on now, I can heat-soak any of them, its just a matter of time... I would guess the reason you are not seeing much in ways of hp losses is more related to the mbc than anything. I think if you measured you're egt's and iat's you would see that with tuned sw and a bpc, you would be pulling boost and timing because of high egt's and high iat's.

With a mbc you just keep pumping in the boost and hot iat's no matter what and although the car makes good power, it is not making that power with the life of the motor in mind.

I do believe you can make more power with a mbc or ebc in place of the bpc and ecu, but you really do need to be carefull and I for one am going to monitor my engine parameters carefully. I will now be data logging pressure, a/f, egt and iat. :cool:

John
 

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That's really funny because with 17psi, and a 12.7:1 AFR, I've managed to keep full timing and HP to redline; just look above. it's not 500HP. it's not even close. I'm @ the limit of something... and it's not the IC. I've maxxed the turbo. in Fact, the 9-3 has ZERO boost-control right now. I've got a "stage-3" car...and a viggen IC, and I've NEVER seen power-loss from knock.

sorry, man...

He asked if anyone has gotten ~250WHP on a stock IC (dynojet HP)
I did. I did it on a stock IC, and stock ECU.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well I have the GS downpipe v2 saab sport exhaust and the gs intake. If I got the MP intercooler, how much of a difference in performance would i see from an MBC to the stage 3.
 

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G96nt said:
That's really funny because with 17psi, and a 12.7:1 AFR, I've managed to keep full timing and HP to redline; just look above. it's not 500HP. it's not even close. I'm @ the limit of something... and it's not the IC. I've maxxed the turbo. in Fact, the 9-3 has ZERO boost-control right now. I've got a "stage-3" car...and a viggen IC, and I've NEVER seen power-loss from knock.

sorry, man...

He asked if anyone has gotten ~250WHP on a stock IC (dynojet HP)
I did. I did it on a stock IC, and stock ECU.
That's alright. But what we are trying to say is that with a stock or viggen IC you will not make as much horsepower as with a forge, and at risk of the engine. Simple facts. Cooler, denser air going into the engine produces optimum performance. You absolutely will not get that with the viggen one. I appreciate your graphs but really asked to see a dyno for a car with stage 3 running a viggen IC versus dyno for the same exact car running a forge.

Again referring to Nahum- his EGTs were high. That is with the stock IC. A bigger, better IC (preferably forge) will give him the best results. The viggen will not... and will be much less safe.
 

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G96nt said:
That's really funny because with 17psi, and a 12.7:1 AFR, I've managed to keep full timing and HP to redline; just look above. it's not 500HP. it's not even close. I'm @ the limit of something... and it's not the IC. I've maxxed the turbo. in Fact, the 9-3 has ZERO boost-control right now. I've got a "stage-3" car...and a viggen IC, and I've NEVER seen power-loss from knock.

sorry, man...

He asked if anyone has gotten ~250WHP on a stock IC (dynojet HP)
I did. I did it on a stock IC, and stock ECU.
You got your one pull;) Like you said, I am not buying it... My viggen ic at stage 3 was good for maybe 1 pull....

John
 

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One pull? That was 2 years ago...
I've gotten FAR more than one pull from it.
I drag race it, I circle-track it... I street race it.
I don't run race gas in it, either.
Straight 93, even doing circle-track... which is high RPM, and speeds <90MPH

I bought this car with 118k on it. it's got 190 as of right now. the last 70k have been almost the exact same setup.
 

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Another thing I was thinking about reading this (and other i/c threads) and is something to consider, is how there will always be a different airflow over the intercooler when on a dyno, compared to real world driving. Sure dyno operators can and do run industrial fans in front of the engine, and sure that does help reduce heat soak on all intercoolers... but that doesnt beat having an intercooler in the real world with 100km/h wind passing over it. I would hazard a guess to say most intercoolers when on a dyno are likely to heat soak as compared to real world driving.

I would be interested in a real world comparison of intake temps (and i/c temps) when driving on the road between stock SE i/c, Viggen I/c, Forge i/c et al.

But pondering that I would say that the larger application i/c like the ETS, Forge, MP, e-bay jobbies are likely to run better on dynos and real world due to larger flow capacities.

just throwing some thoughts around.

sab
 
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