[Didierhoogeveen]

Hi Guys,

I recently got a saab 9-3 convertible 2001 with the B205E engine that should make 150hp. When you fire it up it runs great and it keeps running great the untill you pull hard from first to third gear. The first two gears the car feels incredibly fast, way faster then a 150hp. Hardly any grip until third gear.

When you keep wot in third gear, right around 3500rpm you can feel a significant loss of power. You can still hear the turbo, but it just doesn't pull as hard anymore as before.

I checked for any error codes, and so did my garage. The couldn't find anything. De DIC is new, the purge valve is recently replaced and so is the boost control valve. 90% of the vacuum lines are replaced apart from the 2 that look brand new.

So that's when I decided to hook up a obd2 bluetooth connector to look at the boost levels (i'm aware that it's not actual boost, that it displays, but estimated boost based on manifold pressure if i'm not mistaken).

***I cant post any images unfortunately -- see attachment.***

You see that during the first pull, well over 10psi boost is built up. After that in third gear it quickly drops down to 5 and then halfway through, at around 3500rpm, you feel a loss of power and acceleration is slow. The graph shows a drop of about 1-1.5 psi at that instance.

From that point on, none of the gears have any fun left in them.
When you restart the car after a few minutes wait, it's as powerful as before, until you hit that drop in third gear.

Is there anyone that knows what's wrong with my car?

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Anyone?

 

[BobSaabit]

Yeah, you need 10 posts and perhaps some time here to add attachments. I don't know how long you have to wait before doing links (maybe as long), but you could try links to photos. It's generally better to post photos at a photo hosting service like imgur.com (free) and then use the "insert image" icon in the posting window to add the photo directly.

As for the boost, try this test: drive calmly up until 3rd gear is valid, then try your third gear WOT boost test up a hill on a long, empty highway. See if it pulls hard in 3rd gear. I'm thinking you might be reaching an extreme case of heat soak in the intercooler, but I've never heard of one as extreme as yours. Usually it just tapers off a bit once things get hot. But do the test to add some data.

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your reply. If i take it easy until third gear, WOT will give me the pull expected from WOT, however again only until about 3500-4000 rpm after which the sudden loss of boost kicks in...

This is the image i tried to attach, on imgur slash a/b9t7es4.

Could you explain what heat soak is and what it's usually caused by?

Thanks again,

Didier

 

[BobSaabit]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your reply. If i take it easy until third gear, WOT will give me the pull expected from WOT, however again only until about 3500-4000 rpm after which the sudden loss of boost kicks in...

This is the image i tried to attach, on imgur slash a/b9t7es4.

Could you explain what heat soak is and what it's usually caused by?

Thanks again,

Didier

Heat soak is when the intercooler gets hot and therefore stops cooling the inbound charge properly. It is known that the standard Viggen/cross-flow intercooler can soak after one hard pull and loose performance. However, I've never hear of a case as extreme as yours.
One question, since we don't have the 150HP version over here: Do you have a full crossflow intercooler? I think the 150 is lacking in some componentry, but I'd not sure which pieces.

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Thanks for the explanation. Can i test this by for example, knowing that it's terrible for my engine, cold start WOT in third gear?

Judging by the OEM parts my car comes with a cross flow intercooler. I wish i could post images or links, but for now this part no. will have to do: 4729521.

As far as I know, the B205E shares all the same parts with the B205L. I'm not sure if you have that version but that could give you some insight. The L has the same turbo, but then on full boost. 14.5psi vs 5.8 on mine.

 

[BobSaabit]

If you have that intercooler, then it's cross-flow, which is the better of the two options. Still, I don't see that even the one-sided intercooler would drop boost that low. I used to run 15psi through my one-sided NG900 intercooler and it pulled hard without a serious drop off. 1.5psi is tiny. You can take a look at your hoses: the intercooler hoses should be on both sides of the unit; the one-sided unit has them both on one side.

There's a test we usually do to make sure your hardware is working correctly which involves bypassing the BPC (control valve) so that the ECU loses control over boost. (It will cut fuel if you reach the point that it considers dangerous so your motor is safe). However, I've heard that the 150hp motor doesn't have a BPC... which would lead me to believe the ECU is doing control some other way. Unfortunately I don't know enough about it to suggest the comparable test.

Maybe one of the guys from Europe or down-under who has knowledge of the 150HP motor can help us out here. Wait for some more comments.

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Oke that makes sense. Ill check for that in the morning. The 150hp does have a bpc, and mine is recently replaced (55557331). In my research i found that disconnecting the middle one, that is the one responsible voor the evap system, the W side of the bpc. I will try that tomorrow on my commute. Should be fun!

Thank you for your input so far. I'll let you, and everyone know what I'll find tomorrow.

Kind regards,

edit: W hose is middle one, not top one.

 

[BobSaabit]

If you disconnect the W hose and take a run, how does it perform?

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Can I just pop it right off and go for a drive? Or should i plug it on either side?

 

[BobSaabit]

Can I just pop it right off and go for a drive? Or should i plug it on either side?

No need to plug. (It has no vacuum).

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Sorry to get back to you this late. So, I disconnected the hose, and got multiple 20 psi pulls until the fuel cut came in. That's an intense situation that got my heart beating haha.

So what's next? it holds boost throughout the entire temperature cycle. I did notice a faint whistle and a whoosh sound. Could it be that somehow the purge valve opens prematurely?

Looking forward to hearing your ideas.

Regards

 

[Mimmi]

Your car engine code is B205E, not L.
You have bad (stage) software in Trionic.
Change it and you will have better car.

 

[BobSaabit]

So since you got full boost, we know your hardware is OK. For some reason the ECU is pulling back boost on purpose. That could be a bad sensor giving it bad info, a bad DIC or plugs, possibly a bad ECU (unusual). Has the car been "tuned" (Mimmi's suggestion of bad sofware)?

Is the DIC a SEM (Saab Genuine) DIC? Was the problem there before the DIC and BPC were replaced? Were the plugs replaced and did you use NGK copper or platinum gaped to .9mm? Any check engine lights? Do you know anyone with a Tech II?

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

Hi Bob,

Hope you all had a good weekend. Mine was busy with work, hence the late reply. Apologies.

Oke, the DIC was replaced in november, all original, expensive (haha) part. So that should be good. At the same time, they replaced the spark plugs. I didn't check for the type. Today I'll go and get myself new ones. Does anyone have a part number for me?

The DIC was acting up before replacing: misfires and other intermittent engine issues. After replacing, the misfires were gone, yet this boost issue remained.

As far as i know, the car hasn't been tuned. I'm the third owner but there was no tuning mentioned when I bought it.

There are no CEL's and unfortunately nobody I know has a tech II. I'll ask around. We need a Tech II to check for (bad) tuning software?

Regards

Edit: Found someone with tech 2!

 

[Mimmi]

You can check boost value with TECH2. It will tell you if car has tune. If your car is original, boost value raises max about 0.5 Bar (TECH2 reading 150 kPa, because TECH2 shows absolute pressure).
If it raises higher, you have tune.

 

[BobSaabit]

Mimmi has you covered on the boost/Tech II question.

The Tech II will also let you see diagnostic codes that are not setting a CEL but are affecting performance. Unfortunately you might need a "real" mechanic to interpret the values that are seen (that isn't me). A good mechanic should be able to at least ascertain what the ECU is doing and why, which might lead you to a sensor.

Maybe someone else here will have some ideas for testing other components without a Tech II. Your MAF comes to mind... if it was measuring incorrectly you might get funny run-time results. But I don't know how to test it other than substitution.

For plugs, you should have either NGK BCPR6/7ES (copper) or NGK PFR6H1. Nothing else is acceptable. Gap should be .9mm... set it while you are in there.

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

I bought a tdo4 turbo yesterday, which I'm planning on mounting somewhere in the first week of februari.

The guy I bought the turbo of, used to work for saab, so i asked him about my issues. We went for a short drive and he agrees that when it goes, it's faster then the 150hp it should make. After the boost loss, it actually feels like the 150hp it should make. If that's the case, I'm bored already haha! I need more than that. What could cause it? This could be a tune, and then a bad one, as mimmi suggested, or something mechanical causing it to overboost. I'll have the car tuned when I swap the turbo so then we'll know.

Furthermore, I'll be cleaning the MAF, replacing the fuel filter, and the spark plugs are on their way. Also, when I find one that's reasonably priced, I'll put in a performance intercooler to rule out heat soak as well. If I haven't fixed it by then, who knows what's wrong with it.

The saab guy had a theory about the BCV: He wasn't sure whether there are different versions of the BCV for the b205E/L and the B205R. Given that the latter both operate at a higher pressure, could that cause overboost, and then regular boost, or slightly below that? Anyway, we'll know that as well, once we put on the new turbo.

I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

[BobSaabit]

There's only one BPCv listed in the EPC and it covers all models. It's up to the ECU to moderate it as needed, it has no adjustabiolity aside form frequency, which the ECU controls. Since you replaced yours after the problem was already occurring, it's likely something else.



We usually suggest getting to a solid "stage 0" before tuning, but if your car is already tuned (and your boost levels suggest it is now that I look back at them) then you're already past that option.

 

[Didierhoogeveen]

So I pulled the sparkplugs today and I noticed that there was a lot of carbon deposit on the ring. NGK chart tells me that this could be caused by either of the following faults in my car:

A. Rich mixture
B. Retarded ignition
C. Low compression
D. Too cold a spark plug

The ones on the photo are: bcpr7es11

Now replaced by: pfr6h-10 6290. Problem persists however with the new plugs (properly gapped with feeler gauge.)

Too rich of a mixture would explain the terrible gas mileage I get. I'm currently on 11.4l/100km. I do have a heavy right foot, however most of my kilometres are on the freeway.

What would be the best course of action now?

Kind regards and thank you for any input.