SaabCentral Forums banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First of all, I know zero - zilch - about electronics. So when it comes to speakers, I know nothing.

This is the current state of my stereo. Dash speakers are still good, I wont replace them until I really need to. Door speakers are blown and produce no sound at all, and rear speakers can handle sound but can't handle very much bass. Overall, sound quality is pretty poor.

My budget can handle an upgrade of under $100, so Im thinking I will just replace the rear speakers for now. Anyone have any recommendations for speakers in that price range for the rear?

Crutchfield recommended the Alpine Type-R SPR 69LP , with a retail of $160. Found them on ebay here for much less.

Yes no? And can those work in my car? I'm completely helpless with this.. even richards site didnt help me much!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,696 Posts
Infinity is a good brand, should do OK with the stock head unit. They will sound their best once you add a good amplifier though. I have not heard these specifically so I can't help much with that. Go to a car stereo store and listen to some speakers. Make sure they turn off any subwoofers, only play the ones you are considering, and power them off of a midrange headunit. This will give you the closest idea to how they will sound in the car. When installing them, make sure everything is tight and secure so they don't rattle. Two more tips:

Are you sure you have front door speakers? You mentioned bevans' site so I hope you saw the section on the audio upgrade, make sure you have speakers there, I don't think the wires will be present if there are no speakers.

The seller of the second ebay auction posted has zero feedback, be careful.

Tboy
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,182 Posts
If you are not going to upgrade amplification, the single most important specification to look for is efficiency (also called sensitivity by some mfrs.). The stock head puts out relatively decent power, but not for inefficient speakers. The more efficient they are the louder thay can play with your stock head. All other things being equal, more efficient speakers tend not to produce as much bass as less efficient ones. However, if you are unable to drive your speakers to sufficient spl (sound pressure level or loudness) you will be much more disappointed than giving up 20 to 40 Hz in the lower register. Check the nominal impedance (resistance) of the speakers. Again, all other things being equal, a 2 ohm speaker will require more power than a 4 ohm. (This sounds wrong but is true. Since the 2 ohm presents less resistance to the amplifier, it draws more power to produce its spl. A speaker rated at 90 db efficiency or sensitivity with a nominal 4 ohm rating draws less wattage to produce that 90 db than a 2 ohm nominal with the same 90 db spl). Also, it is at the bass frequencies of around 60 to 80 Hz and lower that impedance drops. That is why the impedance rating is nominal - it changes over the frequency range, with the impedance being the highest at the "resonant frequency" of the speaker and dropping sharply below that. So it is the bass frequencies that draw the most power from an amplifier, and this makes sense when you remember that a speaker is an analog transducer, changing electrical impulses into physical energy to produce a sound wave. Lower frequency sound waves are long while higher are short. The cone must be larger and move further (longer throw) to produce the longer sound waves. Thus it requires significantly more power to generate 90 db at 40 Hz than 90 db at 10,000 + Hz.
At your budget, and looking for 6x9's, you would do well to look for a speaker with a nominal 4 ohm rating or higher that is also rated at 90 db or better efficiency. After that, look for the smoothest, flattest frequency response (how high and low it will go and how many db's variation across that frequency spectrum). A good 6 x 9 speaker meeting these criteria should sound alright indeed in your car. Something like 50 Hz to 22,000 Hz, + 3 to 5 db over that entire range, should be available in the 90 db efficiency range for around $100.00 for the pair.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Saaboheme said:
If you are not going to upgrade amplification, the single most important specification to look for is efficiency (also called sensitivity by some mfrs.). The stock head puts out relatively decent power, but not for inefficient speakers. The more efficient they are the louder thay can play with your stock head. All other things being equal, more efficient speakers tend not to produce as much bass as less efficient ones. However, if you are unable to drive your speakers to sufficient spl (sound pressure level or loudness) you will be much more disappointed than giving up 20 to 40 Hz in the lower register. Check the nominal impedance (resistance) of the speakers. Again, all other things being equal, a 2 ohm speaker will require more power than a 4 ohm. (This sounds wrong but is true. Since the 2 ohm presents less resistance to the amplifier, it draws more power to produce its spl. A speaker rated at 90 db efficiency or sensitivity with a nominal 4 ohm rating draws less wattage to produce that 90 db than a 2 ohm nominal with the same 90 db spl). Also, it is at the bass frequencies of around 60 to 80 Hz and lower that impedance drops. That is why the impedance rating is nominal - it changes over the frequency range, with the impedance being the highest at the "resonant frequency" of the speaker and dropping sharply below that. So it is the bass frequencies that draw the most power from an amplifier, and this makes sense when you remember that a speaker is an analog transducer, changing electrical impulses into physical energy to produce a sound wave. Lower frequency sound waves are long while higher are short. The cone must be larger and move further (longer throw) to produce the longer sound waves. Thus it requires significantly more power to generate 90 db at 40 Hz than 90 db at 10,000 + Hz.
At your budget, and looking for 6x9's, you would do well to look for a speaker with a nominal 4 ohm rating or higher that is also rated at 90 db or better efficiency. After that, look for the smoothest, flattest frequency response (how high and low it will go and how many db's variation across that frequency spectrum). A good 6 x 9 speaker meeting these criteria should sound alright indeed in your car. Something like 50 Hz to 22,000 Hz, + 3 to 5 db over that entire range, should be available in the 90 db efficiency range for around $100.00 for the pair.
Dear Lord! I said I knew nothing about speakers! Well I guess I know alittle bit now, and the last paragraph was the most informative, thank you very much, I appreciate it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
sethsev7n said:
Dear Lord! I said I knew nothing about speakers! Well I guess I know alittle bit now, and the last paragraph was the most informative, thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Just print that post and take it to best buy and watch the salesmans head explode :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
642 Posts
Go with the Infinity Kappa series, its a step above the Reference series for not toom much more money, I have them in the front and they are awesome.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Is it a problem if you use 2 or 3 way speakers in place of the front door "subwoofers"? Since the amp only puts out low frequencies for the door speakers, would the tweeters in 2 ways speakers just not be used? I want to replace the door speakers with ones that handle power better but I dont know if I can just buy good 2 way speakers or if I actually have to get woofers with no tweeters.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,182 Posts
Much better to stick with woofers only as the frequencies delivered to these speakers will do nothing for any tweeters in there. The amplifier simply does not produce anything useful to a tweeter. The bottom of the door is a lousy place for tweeters anyway. High frequencies are highly directional and the sound produced will be swallowed up by carpeting, seats, etc. What is left will go bouncing around until it eventually reaches your ears, a tiny bit out of phase with that coming more directly from the dash units. This will do two bad things at once: muddy up what little stereo effect you can muster from a car stereo and possibly cause some phase cancellation (net loss of the particular frequency or frequencies affected). There are several contemporaneous posts going on (or that were) and in one someone mentioned that Boston Acoustics (excellent company with a great rep for value and quality) makes a fine 6.5 inch woofer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Well I went down to the local Tweeter where my friend works, and he cut me a deal on some Clarion speakers.. probably not my top choice but I got a deal on them so I cannot complain.

I took off my door panel, took out the old speaker, wired up the new speaker.. and no sound!! I know im pretty green at this but I would assume I have sound? I know they are positive and negative connections but I had them right and nothing.. arggh!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,841 Posts
I agree mostly what’s the advice above, get sensitive speakers if using a stock head unit as they can produce about 3 watts per channel of cleanish power, after that the IC just makes lots of distortion.



Efficiently has nothing to do with how much bass a woofer can reproduce, excursion or Xmax determines the sound pressure output of a woofer at a certain frequency, a woofer that is 100mm in diameter is not designed for bass output that can be felt, especially in a infinity baffle arrangement, in a closed enclosure or transmission line yes they can do well but we don’t have the type of space in a dash or door, so these locations are best used for drive units that produce midrange and high frequencies.



Using tone controls or bass boost are the devils work and do not give more bass, just more of a lumpy sound and this also stress the head unit, always have these EQ tone control settings flat, as flat as a pan cake, this is how the sound engineers produced the music and it should remain as such.



The speakers you purchase should be 4 ohms, if you use a 2 ohm speaker this may damage your head unit or cause excessive heat build up, which will make it fail before its time.



Impedance rises below and above the woofers Fs, the Fs is the frequency at which the woofer will resonate naturally, small woofers have higher Fs or resonance at say 100Hz for a 4 inch mid woofer and 100 Hz is not considered bass by us engineers, 50 Hz is when the bass becomes hard to reproduce for small woofers, as the diameter is so small and the excursion small, so it can not reproduce deep bass without very large linear cone travel, again know as X max.



This is why a lot of stock systems using small woofers can not reproduce organ music type bass.



The Fs of a 12 inch woofer is normally 30Hz for example, so this frequency requires very little power and the cone will have a large X max and this is when the impedance will be very high, so the amplifier has not real stress placed on it, so it can reproduce bass with easy at this frequency, the problem is above and below this frequency is when impedance rises and drops and this creates stress on the amplifier, this happens in music as bass is not one frequency, it will have multi layers of tones and harmonics in the lower sound region from 300Hz down to 12HzHz and the woofer has to reproduce this all in one cycle.



Sensitivity and efficiency are two different things, efficency is related to how much power is converted into sound pressure and all transducers convert about 1% to 3% into sound pressure, the rest is turned into heat in the voice coil.



A large woofer will be sensitive at lower frequencies and a small woofer better are mid frequencies, and a small tweeter at high frequencies,



The size and MMs or mass of the transducers affects the speed and its natural Fs, resonance; a small 1 inch tweeter has an Fs of around 1000Hz



The human ears are not linear microphones, what we hear is call logarithmic, our ears are designed to be more sensitive at midrange frequencies, like babies crying at 400Hz to 4000Hz and used by phone companies to save on bandwidth.



After 20KHz our hearing starts to roll off and below 20Hz we don’t hear much bass as much as feel it, better know as infra sound, subwoofer is an incorrect term as sub means below, and there is no sound below sound, sound has positive pressure so can never be sub anything.



I don’t recommend 6x9 for sound quality, these cones have a lot of modulation because of the cheap plastic injection cones are not rigid enough, if you can get non pressed paper cones then go ahead, but its better to get separate drive units IMHO, as 6x9 have nasty IMPP tweeters and a simple 6db cross over, which gives a fried egg sound quality from the bling bling tweeters.



A small pair of fabric tweeters in your dash board cost around, $18 on ebay, get something like Audax of Vifa or Tangband, then get a pair of 6 inch drivers for your door cards, cost would be around $30, once again choose something from Ebay or parts express, then get a second hand amplifier for around $50 and you will have something that will be high fidelity, then add a nice 12 inch

woofer in the boot at a latter date, 1 woofer, cost around $80 second hand, something like an Adire woofer or Dayton and small mono amplifier and then you will have a nice simple cost affective full range system.



Take your time and spend once now so you don’t spend twice later on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
I'm using red Alpine series at the back - SPR-694 which I paid A LOT!!!!! They were 180 euros which is close to 240$ and I can tell there isn't enough sound for that amount of money!
Mounting position for 69's in Saab is too restrictive for them to give their best, even with a good amp and one of the best set of speakers you won't be satisfied.
If you're bass addict go for a nice amp and woofer and focus on front set, as for the 69's, they are there only to cover full range for the rear passengers, so any will do the job (if you care for your rear passengers at all). Whenever I'm driving someone at the back seat he complains the sound is too loud, but from my drivers position I'm not picking that much.
This is pretty much to repeat last section of Mr. ShadowWorks post, and I'm telling this from my personal experience. If I could retreive that money from these Alpines, NOW I would know how to do it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,576 Posts
OK shadow works, I knew the name and had to cross reference with google to be sure ;) don't hold back with advice now. You guys must have trained somewhere, Tannoy?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,841 Posts
It’s a shame that the big Blue Chip brands sell image and not sound stage image, the products are very pretty and offer some improvement on stock system but not very much I am afraid, for value and performance they do not fair well and are more for people who like branded products.

The area inside a car is small so you can not give everybody the sweet spot only yourself, the driver, the passengers are secondary to be honest.

A domestic room is a much larger place and you will be in the middle typically and the same distance from each left and right speaker, in a car your always off centre (unless your have a Maclaren F1) and the distance between your left and right ears will be much shorter and longer in a car making it's hard to get any balance and quality of sound.

Most big branded car audio products do not give high fidelity sound, if you care to check and have an A-B test with a budget pair of home audio speakers you will hear the day and night difference between $100 domestic home audio speakers and $400 car audio speakers, that get blown out the water.

I work at Shadow Works, I used to repair speakers for hi-fi shops customers in Glasgow that would have all night parties and blow there drive units up,Tannoy, Mission, Kef and B&W and so on, I gained lots of experience and this is how I got a job assembling woofers for S Works, is not the best paid job but the work place is great, its like funny uncles pad

I can tell you from first hand experience that the most expensive woofers from the big branded companies don’t cost more than $30 to make, I kid you not.

The law of diminishing return applies itself well to audio, so its best to get good advice and save all your hard earn money for something important like our families
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,576 Posts
I'm lovin' this, we could set up an audio board within saabcentral :cheesy:

shadow works said:
I work at Shadow Works, I used to repair speakers for hi-fi shops customers in Glasgow...
... is not the best paid job but the work place is great, its like funny uncles pad
Once upon a time I worked for Patrick Eggle guitars, I loved it, a job making something worth getting passionate about and yes it was a blast too, alas the pay sucked donkeys :( eventually after 2+ years I quit; I'm better off but it is not the same.

You've mentioned the 'sweet spot' for in car, now to support my awful pay whilst building guitars I also did audio installs in cars, what I always made for people was a comprimise and avoided wasting too much of there money.

One thing, has anyone on this thread mentioned the damping factor of the amplifier?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,841 Posts
Its not a black and white decision, a great job and workplace but so so pay, or great pay no fun no job satifaction and a horrible bunch of people to work for?

I am quite happy working in a place where people are passionate and we have a family atmosphere, its not like a job job that sucks for most people as i have done that too.

My uncle always wanted a New York Broadway guitar, he went on about all the time when the subject would come up, making something with quality that will last a life time is a nice feeling, it goes beyond the thing and becomes a part of someones life and personallity.

Hey Kind of like Saabs :cheesy:

The Damping factor of an amplifier is important in a woofer, but most quality amplifiers have a damping factor better than 200 already and am not sure i would be able to heard the difference if it was a damping factor of 500 or 1000?

I do know that an amplifiers voltage stage and transistors and power supply make a great difference in its final sound quality, guitars love old valve amplifiers, it gives them a richness and sexy quality thats hard to get with solid state electronics.

Do you play air guitars by any chance:cheesy:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,576 Posts
ShadowWorks said:
Do you play air guitars by any chance:cheesy:
do bears sh1t in the woods? :lol:
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top