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Discussion Starter #1
Sanity check please, Boys: Drove 200 miles of a 2000 mile priority trip... shut car off for a break. Came back, no start. Panicked a bit, then hooked up Tech II. No DTC codes. Went to look for starting fluid at rest area but none found. Returned to car still no start. Swapped DIC and car started. Running fine.

Thoughts? Bad DIC or could a cps possibly cool enough to restart in five minutes? I need to plan for picking up what I might need but I’ve got zero slack time in my driving days already... maybe locate a cps in the day along my route and have it on hand?
 

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Both or either, IME.

That said, I have only ever one CPS fail, and it was dead dead forever.

Your experience mimics every DIC failure I've ever had.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Just ran an hour, stopped for a few, restarted fine. My DIC failures threw codes first, but those wereT5’s
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ugh - stopped. An hour later won’t restart as before. I can’t believe that two DICs are bad. I’m going to have to find and install a cps here in Saracuse. Hope it isn’t the fuel pump...hole has been cut previously but I don’t see one in stock anywhere.

Limited tools here, no place to work, no idea if I can get the bolt out, already in a mega hurry on this trip. Life is sucking ATM.

Might have to find a place to tow this car to and fly instead. No idea where that would be.Where do you stash a car for several weeks? Finding a Saab shop around here to fix it for me would be challenging. AAA ain’t gonna tow it 300 miles for me. More ugh. Car is full of my gear. Triple ugh.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Follow up: I’m thinking that It might be fuel pump although it only has 80k on it. Might have to Uber to some starting fluid to move along here. I have the hole cut, should I be able to feel it spin up or hear it through the hole? Will it do that every time I turn the ignition to on or will it only do it the first time... then pressure is there and it doesn’t spin up?

Tapping on the tank from underneath with a hammer didn’t get it to start.
 

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I can recommend this Cps replacement. It only worked for a month for me before I bought a proper replacement. But it's showing same day delivery with prime.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075B2QHLL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You can do it if you find some cheap tools. I think I used a 1/4" ratchet, torx bit, 90 degree elbow and extension. Plus you need to get the heat shield out.

I thought it was the fuel pump for a minute too. I also couldn't hear the pump prime with the cutout open and cushions up. But it turned out to be the cps. It would seem to start back up after cooling down within an hour. But I'm sure other failures could be different.

Also, someone recommended a water spray bottle to get it cool quickly and get moving for short periods.

Maybe the hotel can accept package delivery or the place you buy the tools from.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks. No joy when dead cold this morning. That leans me away from CPS. But, it doesn’t rule it out. No starting fluid at the rest area. Guess I’ll be Uber-ing to Advance Auto locally.

Only 80k on this car so neither should be bad but clearly something is.

You got it out with cheap tools and a 1/4”’ ratchet? The other day I took one out of a 2001 engine w/112k that was out of the car and there is no way it would have worked without a direct shot, are few hammer blows, and a 3/8 ratchet. This one has less miles but I don’t think that will help.

The car gods ar not loving me these days. I fear more pain.
 

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That was the second/third replacement though. You're right in that the first time did take alot of effort now that I think about it. But actually I removed a used one at a junk yard recently that was the original Saab one and it went pretty easy. It could just be how lucky you are. Tools were harbor freight so maybe not the absolute cheapest.
 

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I had similar symptoms on a 900 many years ago (random no start not related to temperature or sitting time). Turned out I had a kinked hose internal to the FP, not sure how it got there since the pump was original to the car and hadn't been removed. I swapped the pump and things were fine since.
 

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You can check to see if the fuel pump is doing anything by (carefully) depressing the test valve - no tools needed. Just tiny hands. :) You can also borrow a fuel pressure tester from an auto parts store if you wanna be scientific about it. :)

You might also be able to use a squirt of carb cleaner or starter fluid through one of the vacuum ports - if you have a weak fuel pump or weak DIC, it might at least get the thing started.

Maybe California, but a 1/4" ratchet, a 9" wobble extension, and a torx socket are all I have ever used on a CPS. Nothing needs to move, but it's fidgety for sure. IME, removing the intake pipe is more valuable than the exhaust heat shield. With the pipe gone, you have good visibility and the wobble gets you in.

For not California, I wonder if an aluminum screw would work well...?


Edit: I will add that I used to use a cheapo Lisle torx bits and these NEVER worked. I have since acquired Bondhus and OTC torx bits, and they have MUCH better engagement on torx heads. The Bondhus bits put up with the T45s on my XR's diff, which are notorious for destroying torx bits.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well, due to a lack of time for this and a need to be somewhere on a schedule, I've farmed it off to a local mechanis in upstate NY. He will repair and I'll pick it up in a couple weeks on my way back east. I couldn't find anyone local who was qualified and able to do it today. I'm driving a rental now.

I'm fairly comfortable with it being the CPS, but even diagnostics were a logistical and time issue for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Finally getting back to this. Mechanic says car wouldn't start for him when dead cold. He found a code for low fuel pressure (I didn't see any DTC codes at all when I checked on the road after failure). But, after some starting spray, car fired and ran. Now he can't repro. Tried a short test drive, let it idle for 1.5 hours, runs fine now. He's thinking it's an intermittent fuel pump but isn't sure and I'm not confident either. I'm still leaning CPS because of the hot start issue. But cold start isn't really a common CPS issue from what I've heard.

Thoughts on the diagnosis?

I'm having him change the CPS. I plan to drive back to MA from NY. I'm thinking that I should order a fuel pump and carry it with me on the way as security. The hole was cut previously. What else would make you feel warm and fuzzy driving this a long way? Maybe I should get some spare o-rings for the fuel lines into the pump? Do they come with the factory pump out of ORIO? There's s small bag with a twist tie in the kit but I can't tell what is in it. Factory pump does come with threaded ring and the big o-ring.

Should I order a couple of those aftermarket fuel line fittings in case once breaks? I have recently had the supply line out (using Jake's methods) so I know that will come out again. The return line hasn't been out. If I needed to replace one, how do those things install in the hard fuel lines? Any chance I'd be able to fit one on the road for at least a temp repair if it broke coming out? Any temp short cuts that would get me home if needed? (EDIT: existing pump already has one of those metal clips installed on the lines so I'm covered for clip breakage).

Fill me in fast... I need to get a parts order in so I can bring everything on the flight with me to NY next week.
 

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I have a thought: There is no fuel pressure sensor on an OG9-3, so it'd be *real hard* to get a code for low fuel pressure. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have a thought: There is no fuel pressure sensor on an OG9-3, so it'd be *real hard* to get a code for low fuel pressure. :p

Good point. This guy was the "service manager" at the shop, although it's very small. So maybe he doesn't have a clue what the code was.
 

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Finally getting back to this. Mechanic says car wouldn't start for him when dead cold. He found a code for low fuel pressure (I didn't see any DTC codes at all when I checked on the road after failure). But, after some starting spray, car fired and ran. Now he can't repro. Tried a short test drive, let it idle for 1.5 hours, runs fine now. He's thinking it's an intermittent fuel pump but isn't sure and I'm not confident either. I'm still leaning CPS because of the hot start issue. But cold start isn't really a common CPS issue from what I've heard.

Thoughts on the diagnosis?
I'd like to know more about what testing was done, if any, during the no start condition...power at the pump? pump making noise?

At this point, I would use an inductive clamp probe and an oscilloscope to observe the trace of the pump while running. A skilled tech with complete specs can learn a lot about a fuel pump from its trace. BUT, even a non-skilled tech with no specs can learn something...mostly whether one of the commutator/windings is funky, or not.

The trace should be a squiggly line of humps (sorry to use such technical language). The humps should be roughly similar (theoretically identical, but that's never the case in practice). If you freeze the 'scope and study the humps carefully, you will notice that the pattern repeats every (usually) 8 or 12 humps. That is, if one hump has a sort of flattish top compared to the rest, look for the next occurrence of that shape...the number of humps in-between plus the flattish hump is how many commutators the fuel pump has. If one or more hump(s) look significantly different, there's something funky going on.

One can calculate pump RPMs and current draw, but determining whether they are good or abnormal is where you need good specifications of the fuel pump...which I'm told are hard to find. If I ever replace my fuel pump again, I want to capture some of this information. Perhaps some of the guys over at TrionicTuning would have better insight about the current and RPM specs.
 

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I have a thought: There is no fuel pressure sensor on an OG9-3, so it'd be *real hard* to get a code for low fuel pressure. :p
Good point. This guy was the "service manager" at the shop, although it's very small. So maybe he doesn't have a clue what the code was.
There isn't a code for low fuel pressure, but low fuel level, its actually more of an FYI code that accompanies another code, i.e. if you get a code for A/F ration being off and it occurred when the fuel level was low you will also get the low fuel level code just to assist in diagnosis - like maybe the cause of the A/F ration code was due to low fuel level (and therefore possibly low fuel pressure).
 

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Discussion Starter #18
There isn't a code for low fuel pressure, but low fuel level, its actually more of an FYI code that accompanies another code, i.e. if you get a code for A/F ration being off and it occurred when the fuel level was low you will also get the low fuel level code just to assist in diagnosis - like maybe the cause of the A/F ration code was due to low fuel level (and therefore possibly low fuel pressure).

Yeah, I know that one... but I think there's plenty of gas in it. I was staying over half full at all times due to the long intervals on the road (got longer the further west I went: at one point in New Mexico I think you drive for three hours without seeing a station :).



But, clearly this guy was wrong about the code either way. Thanks,
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Gents:



What tools do I need if i have to change a fuel pump on the road? The hole is already cut. I need to ship this stuff ahead of time to have on my ride.

I'm thinking vise-grips and screwdriver to pry out fuel lines from pump, hammer to use with screw driver to loosen old pump ring and tighten new, torx to remove screw in steel bracket that secures line (previously broken clips), and that's about it.

Anything I'm forgetting?
 
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