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Current: 2000 9-3 Aero 5d, Family: 85 900i 3dr.
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Car: OG9-3 Aero - Auto. (B205R Engine) - 2000.
Mileage: 167000 km / 104k Miles.
PCV Status: Running Update #6 - with new hoses (changed last year)

So the advice from my Saab Specialist is that I need to drop the Pan and change the mesh size on the intake.
I know this is a common modification, but a recent comment in another post suggested it wasn't a good idea.

The sticky regarding the pan drop may not fully reflect current thinking - given that our cars are so much older now.
So I just want to clarify the current thinking about this.

So the additional related question is this: If you are doing the pan drop - what extra is involved to change the oil pump o-ring?
The reason why - is that I have the following action items:
1. Oil leaks from the following locations: Vacuum pump seals, oil pump o-ring, and crank seal area.

I just had the Valve cover gasket changed & head bolts retorqued.
So ignoring the Vacuum pump issue.

I don't have the facilities to do this job (crank seak etc) myself - so my Saab specialist will do them - unless I get some family help.
The car is my only daily driver - but it doesn't get a lot of use at the moment.

What is the best plan of attack for the oil pump o-ring, pan drop and potentially crank seal?
I've seen a rough estimate that the oil pump o-ring is approx 12 hours total, and the pan drop approx 4- 5 hours.
 

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The mechanic changed the front main seal on my B234 engine, and that exposes the oil pump gears. I am not sure whether the front main seal is what you are calling the oil pump o ring? In any case, it was maybe an hour's work to do the change. Is the 12 hour estimate for ALL the work?

I would also say, unless you are getting trouble with the oil light on startup or hot idle, why touch anything? Where is the mechanic getting this advice from?
 

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Current: 2000 9-3 Aero 5d, Family: 85 900i 3dr.
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Edt.
On Start up the Oil light goes out as per all other lights - no issue there.
Hot Idle - not sure what you mean here - but rpm wise its between 900 and 1000 on start up etc. Temp wise it sits almost bang on 9'oclock.

re the crank seal - I think it's the rear one - not the front. 'rear main seal' I think it has been described as.
I thought there were several O rings associated with the oil pump. The one I was thinking is like this:
and the o-ring looked like this in the kit:
Maybe the hours included removing the timing cover as well?
I know the uptake pipe has some small o-rings on it as well eg:
 

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The oil pump o-ring and the front seal do not really overlap with the pan drop in terms of labor. However you can have it done at the same time if you want. At least it will be easier to get to while the subframe is dropped, so in that respect it should save some money.

However, you should replace the oil crossover pipe o-rings and the oil pickup oring when the pan is down.

You can replace the oil pump with the parts you have shown but it's not necessary if the pressure is good and it's not sludged.

2x Crossover oil pipe o-ring 9137993
Sump pickup o-ring 9998009
Oil pump cover o-ring 9130600
 

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Usually when people say "oil pump o-ring" they are referring to a large-diameter o-ring that seats the pump housing to the timing cover. When you change the front main seal, you also change the oil pump o-ring... it's a few extra minutes of work.

There is also a oil pump pickup oil ring, which you would generally change when dropping the oil pan (along with a pair of o-rings for the oil delivery tube).
 

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I've heard of very few people changing the mesh on the oil pickup screen. It's been talked about, but as far as anyone actually doing it, it seems to be pretty rare. It involves sourcing wider mesh, and then having the equipment to weld it onto the pickup tube. Once PCV update #6 is installed, the oil pan and pickup are cleaned, and you continue to use only synthetic oil, the chances of further sludging are extremely small.
 

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I personally wouldnt change the mesh size and i changed my oil pump in about an hour so whats this 12 hour estimate? It just involved removing the crank pulley and having a good part of snap ring pliers as far as i recall (was over 5 years ago so fuzzy on exact details)
 

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One of the motors I bought had holes poked in the screen with an awl. But yeah, once it's clean and you use good oil it shouldn't plug up again. Some of the chunks might be timing chain guides btw - check them closely.
 

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The T5 had larger holes in the screen. They intentionally made them smaller in the T7 to limit what got pumped into the engine. Combined with the PCV/Sludge issue, it became an issue as the screens were clogging. The screen size wasn't the issue, the sludge was.

That's led some to install T5 style screens or poke the openings larger with an awl like DeskMechanic found. Their theory is that IF you get stuff that could clog the screen, it's better to send it into the engine than it is to clog the screen. Highly debatable.

I wouldn't do it. In fact, I've done a few pans and not done that. It's probably not critical either way once you do the PCV update. But, it's a judgement call. T5 motors had it and they seem to last. YMMV. Literally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you all for your comments.
Thanks also to @AUSSIE900
I will not replace the mesh based on the guidance here and what I have read so far. It seems like the best move,
Thanks for the extra guidance regarding the oil pump o-ring. I will discuss the real requirement now I understand the difference - front crank seal, timing cover etc. It is also handy to know the extra o-rings needed on the uptake pipe etc.
Cost-wise there is no shortcut - so it's just a step I have to take. - Doing nothing is risky.
It seems like Pan drop when the o-rings are being replaced is the most cost-effective solution - given testing needed to identify oil leaks - based on what I understand.
Given I just did the valve cover gasket I think this will hopefully be the best preventative solution associated with B205 maintenance.
 

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I had my first replaced on my 2002 vert , pulled the pan, cleaned, reassembled. Then shortly later , less than 10k miles, light on again. Damn. Pulled engine , trans, compression was down,; replaced engine.

On my 2000vert w/200k miles . Light came on. took it to the master mechanic in Maryland. Well, one of them.
Did the pan. I had bought the car at 195K miles for $850.00. So pan , screen cleaned, was o k. well for a while that is.
6 months later, light on again. The master mechanic said, oh oh little compression.

Replaced my engine with a "frankenstein" engine. my 2000 head, and the block from a '96. Was told a better engine. Stouter piston rods....I forget what all.
Guess what, yup, again. Was Using Amsol oil..
Took it to a person in Lititz PA. He pulled it The master tech said try new bearings. We did .
But that didn't keep the oil screen from clogging.
I got really tired. Posted a TAKE IT post in facebook maryland SAAG=B group. No one took it. Ha!
LKQ Parts gave me $440.00. I did take out the cup holder. and mass air flow.

O K Back to my 2002. Now that one! Had it towed to Lititz. He pulled the pan. Found two bearings spun.

Got a replacement engine from Geoffrey Shore in Phila. Honda Goldwing riders Association has a great towing program. 100 miles. ten times a year ! So, not even being there, towed from Phila to lititz, and installed.
Had bearings checked. the had a slight gap, but within specs..

Well used engine in car from Phila, runs great, and pressure goes to 20 at idle, hot.
Fingers crossed.

Do yourself a favor. Install an OIL PRESSURE GAUGE> Easy install using a plate between the filter mount and the filter.
Worth it 'Bout a hundred bucks.
. Prosportgauges.com
Gas Electric blue Auto part Circle Automotive wheel system
1634138462835.png
 

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Yeah these engines suffer from that.

Similar story. Bought my 2000 from the original owner, 105k miles, had recently had the pan dropped and cleaned. Less than 100 miles later, bang no pressure. Dropped pan, spun rod bearing. Got a junkyard 2002 B235e motor, even that one had more than expected wear to the bearings and a slack timing chain so I put a new set of bearings, new timing chain & guides, new oil pump in it. Has good pressure thankfully.

I'm convinced it's wear in the balance shaft bearings, they suck oil direct from the #3 main bearing and spin at 2x crank speed with a tiny little chain. Nothing else in either motor was that far out of spec. There are other theories about the pressure having to do with bad low speed fan, oil pump wear, sticky piston cooling jets, poor sealing of the front cover, etc. But I don't think there have been any definitive conclusions.

So tl;dr check oil pressure BEFORE you do any sludge repair. If the oil pressure is low, the engine is probably on it's last legs.

I have the old B205 short block here - rebuilding it with forged pistons and a B235 crank and importantly I think i will delete the balance shafts with bearing blanking plugs. Not worth the risk.

The best solution could be find a 2004+ B235R from a 9-5 , they had a vastly improved PCV system and do not suffer as much from sludge. Will drop right in, will run fine with your ECU and harness, but could be improved with a bit of a reflash/tune.
 

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Any 2004+ 9-5 engine would work. The only difference in the Aero engines is the nimonic exhaust valves, which aren't really necessary. I've never heard of one of those having sludge issues. I've heard that a 2.3 liter engine will run lean, though, unless you have your ECU tuned.
 

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Any 2004+ 9-5 engine would work. The only difference in the Aero engines is the nimonic exhaust valves, which aren't really necessary. I've never heard of one of those having sludge issues. I've heard that a 2.3 liter engine will run lean, though, unless you have your ECU tuned.

Pretty sure in 2004+ they were all Aero (15t turbo, 260hp) even if not badged as such. And the nimonic valves started with B205R, my car's original head had them. Despite what saab PR said back in the day. You can check the part number on the end of the stem. Pretty sure it was only the lpt B205 that had std. exhaust valves.
 

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You're thinking of 2006+. In 2004 and 2005 there was still a distinct Aero engine on the 9-5. Starting in 2006, all models of the 9-5 got the 260 hp engine, thanks to the "king cobra" intake pipe and a shorter compressor housing on the turbo.
 

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So tl;dr check oil pressure BEFORE you do any sludge repair. If the oil pressure is low, the engine is probably on it's last legs.
I think this as well. It's critical to remember the low oil pressure light shows only catastrophically low oil pressure. It's entirely possible to run an engine for a very long time with insufficient oil pressure (or flow) before you actually get the light. I imagine there's "a lot" of early B2x5s running around with bad oil pressure and the owners just don't know it. The light is too little too late.

I think before even considering a pan drop spending $100 to install a gauge will help you make decisions. It's really too bad there's not an easy way to do that before buying the car. ;)
 

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You're thinking of 2006+. In 2004 and 2005 there was still a distinct Aero engine on the 9-5. Starting in 2006, all models of the 9-5 got the 260 hp engine, thanks to the "king cobra" intake pipe and a shorter compressor housing on the turbo.
Thanks for the correction!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I was just going to do the steps outined - without changing the mesh size.
So by having a clean pan, good o-rings and valve cover gaskets etc - combined with the PCV and good quality / regular oil changes - one would expect there to be no issues.
If the flake style sludge I have - is cleaned via the pan drop - everything should be ok, right?
 

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IIf the flake style sludge I have - is cleaned via the pan drop - everything should be ok, right?
Ubfortunately Mort all the pan drop and clean does is ensure the oil pump can pick up oil ..... If sludge has been a historic issue in the engine , then that damage is done so to speak . You wont remove sludge merely dropping the Pan. Not trying to be an alarmist , your engine is probaly fine and your steps will reduce the potential for further damage .
An oil pressure gauge set up would be smart , if for nothing else to give you peace of mind. And if it doesnt do that , then start thinking about sourcing a B2X4 bottom end and building the hybrid with yout t7 head .
Desk mechanic's post talks balance shafts , totally concur the damage that has has resulted in the bearings of these is a major contributor to low oil pressure. The hybrid ( 204 bottom 205 top ) engine that I built 40,000 k back was a result of snapped balance shaft chains and spun bearings on the shafts . ( poor oil pressure , blocked pick up , sludged sump etc)

With the pan off , ask the mechanic to remove inspect at least one Main bearing shells , the one at the flywheel end , that will give some insight to any damage .
 
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