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need a real professional tuner are there any out there

1222 Views 58 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  Joshinator99
i live in ct mass area are there any reputable tuners that actualy know and care what they are doing money is no issue i dont care how much it cost i just want what i want i dont want to send it off for a tune. i want to drive to them sit there with them while they tune it test drive it and see right then and there if its good or needs changes. its a pretty basic setup that most saabers have so i dont see it being that complicated of an issue. so if anyone at all knows anyone at that does real saab tuning please let me know i wanna know what this guy did to my car please and thanks
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Hmmm...I understand the limitations of a twenty year old Saab and I can tell if I'm going to break it and if I do then it will get fixed (I tend not to break things), the age of the clutch or hoses or the thermostat has nothing to do with my scenario to be honest.

I just want to take advantage of a little money invested in some exhaust bits, not rocket power by any stretch, if stage one is it I really don't care.

I'm looking for simplicity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
i spent months looking for tuners on the web the reviews is what reallt tells you whats going on. honestly the big companies like maptune and noob yeah they are a professiional tuning business. mps a guy named mike has been tuning saabs for many many years i spoke to him on the phone and thats what sealed the deal. he answers every question i ask even if its a stupid one and doesnt get upset or ignor you after the fact. he helped me narrow down my issue with my car i had the wrong plugs in it gapped to big something so simple yet he was there the whole time for me. and his prices are good the tune is great very clean car runs great except he doesnt do anything over 450 hp thats not his bag. i am looking for someone like him but that does 500 hp tunes they are hard to find cause of my geographic location and anything that big they want to have the car there so they can drive it and check things out to mjake sure its running right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
well i would call mike from mps look him up he does the kind of tunes your looking for. you just want to let it breatha little and tap into some power thats more what he does
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
yeah my 01 aero sedan will be a completely brand new car by the time i pt that built motor in it. even sandblasting the sub frame this winter and putting all new poly bushings in and koni suspension and sub frame connectors it will be a few steps down from a race car but still retain the stock interior and stock look of an aero no wide body crap no crazy rims just a sleeper. this is to hk
 

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Hmmm...I understand the limitations of a twenty year old Saab and I can tell if I'm going to break it and if I do then it will get fixed (I tend not to break things), the age of the clutch or hoses or the thermostat has nothing to do with my scenario to be honest.

I just want to take advantage of a little money invested in some exhaust bits, not rocket power by any stretch, if stage one is it I really don't care.

I'm looking for simplicity.
Then you might want to consider going with different injectors or at least a 3.5bar FPR as well.
That will allow for +280HP.

well i would call mike from mps look him up he does the kind of tunes your looking for. you just want to let it breatha little and tap into some power thats more what he does
He has a very bad reputation in the TrionicTuning community. Also had numerous customers who had serious issues with his files.
Guy doesn't even have a proper registration.

I know people don't care too much for that, but if you want to be serious, there are some basic principles you should follow.
 

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Huge difference in someone wanting to up the power by 20% with just a bigger downpipe, where most competent mail order tunes will be fine, and going for 50% or in your case 500hp.

The only approach that will safely get you running to full potential at 500hp is live tuning, best done not on the road but on a dyno. Equiped with lots of possible replacement spares, travel a long ways for a live session is time and money well spent. Can't suggest who that would be in your part of the world, my thoughts are you might be better off going to a competent motor sports quality tuner local to you that does plenty of 4cyl turbo tuning, though uncertain if this is possible for non-T5 ECUs. If this is not possible for you the Maptun would be my choice, then get it on a dyno and adjust as needed.

For moderate tuning (up to 350hp) there is a world of difference between the handful of pros and everyone else. Many years ago I went to a T5 Maptun stg3 ECU. They have tuned many Saabs well past 500hp and and Fredrick really understands the issues and trade-offs involved, and is a great guy as well. There were many, many differences between what I got mail order and the tuners not creating their own maps on a dyno - most everyone else, such as say Nobtune. In no particular order: no going very rich and spitting black smoke on going to a WOT long burn on an autobahn (like almost every tuned Saab I have been behind going to WOT from say 80mph) & no going real lean and pinging the knock LED that anyone driving hard should install; no sledgehammer boost coming in all at once and feeling 'so powerful' instead linear boost and my std clutch and gearbox that lasted and lasted used hard on track, autobahn, over the Alps many times - where my friends with 'cheaper' tunes were replacing gearboxes every year; power configured to peak at high rpms which is much gentler on the gearbox and perfect for hi speed cruising which is the main use of my car - if you want 1/4 mile power then a sledgehammer big boost early tune might be for you as long as you can provide a steady supply of clutch and gearbox parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
i really thinkhe just gave me a hirsch map that will work with the 630cc injectors cause it runs great but it was weird how he siad he wouldnt do much over 300 315 max so maybe thats why its running fine. ill just have to take time travel and find someone to do it problem is will have to trailer the car cause i cant drive it anywhere with a stock ecu and all the hardware.
 

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You could ask over on Trionic Tuning or learn to tune yourself!? I believe that’s what @jmichael did
Learning to tune on your own car is fine when you’ve done a few small mods (CAI, catback, etc). But to attempt to learn on a combo that has major changes, and a lot of them, is a fools errand. I’ve learned this the hard way with my 955 WHP Camaro. Definitely better getting to a dyno where a tuner who does this everyday can watch the data in real time to make sure the combo is safe and making good power. You can then make tweaks from there, but the pro does the base tune for you.
 
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i really thinkhe just gave me a hirsch map that will work with the 630cc injectors cause it runs great but it was weird how he siad he wouldnt do much over 300 315 max so maybe thats why its running fine. ill just have to take time travel and find someone to do it problem is will have to trailer the car cause i cant drive it anywhere with a stock ecu and all the hardware.
If you got original Hirsch sw, it needs iPRO with internet connection to Hirsch. Did you saw it?
 

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Learning to tune on your own car is fine when you’ve done a few small mods (CAI, catback, etc). But to attempt to learn on a combo that has major changes, and a lot of them, is a fools errand. I’ve learned this the hard way with my 955 WHP Camaro. Definitely better getting to a dyno where a tuner who does this everyday can watch the data in real time to make sure the combo is safe and making good power. You can then make tweaks from there, but the pro does the base tune for you.
Honestly - a dyno is only needed for power verification.
You might have seen Joel Artusson's 9-5 and 9-3I - the later has +700HP and was tuned entirely on the road (not by Nordic) by himself.
Dyno runs back the power figures calculated by him and the T7Suite.
Joel learnt through the information provided on TrionicTuning and his own experiences how to tune vehicles properly.

Same by Mackanized and one of his customers:
Green Gauge Odometer Trip computer Speedometer

We all boil with water and have to deal with the same physics.
If you do not know your way around that not even a dyno will fix a bad tune (as also presented by some known US company).

And especially in a country like Germany a dyno serves even less purpose 😁
If you got original Hirsch sw, it needs iPRO with internet connection to Hirsch. Did you saw it?
If you buy the tune from Hirsch, yes, but what about this:
Font Technology Electric blue Rectangle Screenshot

Rectangle Slope Plot Font Parallel


I have copies of all Hirsch files myself - nothing prevents MPS from selling him the same stuff or a mashup of it and other tunes.
 

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in the northeast where i am i havent found anyone that can do the tuning i want i just want a clean tune for 450 hp thats it i have all the applicable hardware required for the tune so i dont see the issue besdies theyre just not around here and was told by many tuners that do do that level want to be in the car with the car when they tune it and i dont have the time to drive 500 miles and spend 3 days tuning my car.
To each his own, but I often wonder what makes anyone pick a target like "450 HP" and why they feel they need it.

If you are building a car for specific track use, like drag racing or speed runs, have at it. But be aware that you are making a track-optimized car, not a fast street car.

It's hard to see what one would do with 450 HP, or 707 HP for that matter, on the street. I guess you could give it the gas on the freeway and go shooting up to the car ahead of you, which might take all of five seconds, and then get on the brakes. That can make noise that's awesome to some folks, but the same can be accomplished by straight-piping an Infinity G37, which seems like a bit of a thing around here.

I have a hard time seeing a use case for 450 HP in a front-wheel drive car. (Nor 707 HP in a RWD: the only thing saving your butt is the traction control.)

But like I said, each to his own.

Huge difference in someone wanting to up the power by 20% with just a bigger downpipe, where most competent mail order tunes will be fine, and going for 50% or in your case 500hp.

The only approach that will safely get you running to full potential at 500hp is live tuning, best done not on the road but on a dyno. Equiped with lots of possible replacement spares, travel a long ways for a live session is time and money well spent.

For moderate tuning (up to 350hp) there is a world of difference between the handful of pros and everyone else. Many years ago I went to a T5 Maptun stg3 ECU. They have tuned many Saabs well past 500hp and and Fredrick really understands the issues and trade-offs involved, and is a great guy as well. There were many, many differences between what I got mail order and the tuners not creating their own maps on a dyno - most everyone else, such as say Nobtune.
This plus a thousand percent. Saab's default tuning on a 2.3T was 260 HP in North America, and factory-approved tunes into the low 300s in Europe (Mimmi would know).

450 HP is 50% more than the factory's top output. It's also almost 200 HP per litre.

Horsepower is the product of torque x RPM. The only way to make a lot more horsepower is either:
  1. Improve the engine's breathing and strengthen the rotating assembly, so the engine can make the same amount of torque but at higher engine speeds. If an engine peaks out at 200 HP @ 5250 RPM, we know (due to the mathematics) that it's putting out 200 ft-lbs at that RPM. Modify the engine to make 200 ft-lbs up at 7000 RPM, the engine will then make 267 HP at 7000 RPM--while possibly still making the same 200 HP at 5250.
  2. Increase the torque within the engine's present working RPM range. So if you increased torque at 5250 RPM to 300 ft-lbs, you would get 300 HP.
Generally, with a small four cylinder turbo engine, the approach is #2. Increase boost, improve breathing on the exhaust (downpipe), make sure it's fuelled, and--voilà?

One question is how much strength the engine has to withstand such increase in forces. The other question is if the tune avoids engine damaging events like detonation.

It's easy on the Internet (or at a bar, or at Cars and Coffee) to throw around numbers. It can be harder in real life.

Assuming you have been going to the gym reasonably regularly, you probably do various exercises in sets of X reps.

So if you regularly do 10 reps at 100 lbs, how easy would it be to go in one day and jump to 12 reps at 120 lbs? 15 reps at 150 lbs? We know that pretty generic low-risk tunes can easily produce the 12 reps at 120 lbs. But there is a limit, and the limit can hit hard and cause damage.
 

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Generally, with a small four cylinder turbo engine, the approach is #2. Increase boost, improve breathing on the exhaust (downpipe), make sure it's fuelled, and--voilà?
That is a fatal assumption and probably a major reason why so many tunes we see are not done properly.
Of course you increase the airmass in the system and have to improve "breathing" (intake depression and back pressure), but more importantly - you have to adjust ignition timing.
See the Hirsch file above - the extra 30HP are simply gained through ignition timing!

It is honestly the most underestimated factor while performing a tune up and one, which inexperienced tuners overlook or do wrong.

One question is how much strength the engine has to withstand such increase in forces. The other question is if the tune avoids engine damaging events like detonation.
Thats why we have lab data sheets for the engines.
A good tune never alters security relevant functions.

I made a review of a bad tune, which did exactly that:

Again - the Trionic engine management provides you with all the tools you need to precisely and safely tune for big power.
You just need to know how.
 

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That is a fatal assumption and probably a major reason why so many tunes we see are not done properly.
Of course you increase the airmass in the system and have to improve "breathing" (intake depression and back pressure), but more importantly - you have to adjust ignition timing.
See the Hirsch file above - the extra 30HP are simply gained through ignition timing!
I totally agree that it's the assumptions you don't question that cause you to blow up your tuned engine. After that experience, you probably ask more questions. :cool:

I would also assume that gaining 30 HP simply through ignition timing isn't that simple. For the most part, Saab NG900, OG9-3, 9-5, and NG9-3 Owner's Manuals recommend relatively low average octane numbers (AON), for example 90 AON for 185 HP 2.3t, and even for all NG9-3, whether 2.0t, 2.0T, or 2.8. And for these, it's stated that 87 AON can be used, "with some decrease in performance", and also "avoid heavy labouring".

I would expect that the +30 HP of the Hirsch tune takes away the choice to put in 87 if you want or need to.

ETA: that's Owner's Manuals in North America. Note that AON can be translated into what you use in Europe (RON?) but there are subtleties. Note also that while 93 or 94 AON can be available at select gas/petrol stations, 91 AON is the default "should be able to get anywhere except the off-brand back-country gas station". So any tune where anything more than 91 AON is absolutely required is a "you better know where you can fuel up" tune.
 

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I would expect that the +30 HP of the Hirsch tune takes away the choice to put in 87 if you want or need to.
That +1.
Hirsch asks for at least 98 RON, which is 93 AON.
Though I must say that the fuel quality in the US can spike a lot when talking about high octane fuels (some states seem to sell E10 as 93AON).

Thats also why the bare minimum we ask for is 91 AON. Everything below that is a no go.
Alternatively E85 is the (easiest) way to go.
 

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Tuning a powerful car on the street is dumb, period. The dyno let’s you get the vast majority of it right in controlled conditions, and then you can tweak it to perfection at the track. Maybe at low power levels you can mess around on a back road, but I can assure you at higher levels you should not do that. And people can throw around whatever “HP” number they want, but the track will tell the tale… ;)
 
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Dynos provide controlled environment conditions.
Street provides real world conditions.

Tuning with the first is faster and easier.
The second needs more time and work (and won't tell you exactly what power figures you hit).

But usually you want a combination of both (if possible). Otherwise a log based tune will work the exact same (you do the same stuff as on a dyno).

Which is also why the power figures mentioned above match up when dyno tested.

Therefore, I stand by my point, which has been proved numerous times by different individuals:
If you know what you are actually doing and have the knowledge a dyno is not needed, unless you are looking for a 100% certification of power.
 

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Tuning a powerful car on the street is dumb, period. The dyno let’s you get the vast majority of it right in controlled conditions, and then you can tweak it to perfection at the track. Maybe at low power levels you can mess around on a back road, but I can assure you at higher levels you should not do that. And people can throw around whatever “HP” number they want, but the track will tell the tale… ;)
Agree with this...dyno tuning can leave lots of gaps to be filled (cold idle/throttle off scenarios, etc) but in terms of safely finding the upper limits its the gold standard for sure. Adjusting the rest definitely affects drivability but tends to not have catastrophic results if not addressed as the first thing.

I don't remember which YT channel took a "street" tuner that had done hundreds of the same car/ECU (with many more positive thab negative reviews), paid him, then took the car to the dyno & it was an engine replacement waiting to happen....& that was at far lower power levels & less area under the curve than the safer dyno tune they ended up with.

I agree numbers mean nothing, any dyno can read any number based on how you set it up but safely maximizing your area under the curve is key for any street application.
 
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