[ajakejyt]

Hi there,

Today, I went to restart my 2007 9-5 2.3T manual transmission combi (with stage 2 BCB ecu) after coming out of the store, and it cranked, fired, and immediately died. Tried it again, gave it a full accelerator pedal load, and after some hesitation down low, it fired into life. Sounds to me like the warm engine got flooded. No odd whining from the fuel pump, no hesitation on full throttle after this incident, and tons of new parts (listed below).

After I got home, I hooked up my tech II and scanned it at idle: attached are the results - they're all listed below since I could not find a forum thread that had an exahustive list of normal ranges for these parameters.

I have no CELs or DTCs. The only thing that's disconcerting to me is the low MPG, but it's winter and I have a ski rack on the car.

After reading the parameters and the above, please advise if my list of parts to check when the car is at the dealer next (soon, I promise) is too broad, too narrow, or if I'm forgetting anything. Thanks!

MPG: Before long idle: 23.4mpg after highway driving & around town. Minimal stress, maybe got to full throttle once on the 45 minute run. Ski racks on the car. Winter blend 93 octane gasoline. One passenger. 45-50 degrees F ambient temperature.

Tech II Readings:

• airmass/combustion: 148 mg/comb
• Coolant temperature: 183 degrees F
• Airmass/combustion calculated: 142-5 mg/comb
• Airmass deviation from calculated: 2-3%
• Mass airflow 4.1 g/s
• Intake air temp 104 degrees F
• Atmospheric absolute pressure 98.6 kPa
• Charge air absolute pressure 98.8 kPa
• Manifold absolute pressure 35.9 kPa
• Short term fuel trim .65%
• Purge adaptation -2.86
• Additive adaptation -.19 mg/comb
• Multiplicative adaptation 4.29%
• Injection duration 3.012 ms
• Injection end angle 380 degrees
• Charge air control valve 2/0%
• charge air adaptation -24.5%
• Idle speed deviation -5-11 rpm
• Canister purge valve 26.8%
• Fuel tank pressure -.273 kPa
• fuel tank pressure, filtered -.117 kPa
• Ignition timing 8.0 degrees
• Combustion detection cylinder 1+2 3960 μs
• “ “ 3+4 0 μs
• Knock cal 1 (likely never reset): 339 2: 225 3: 96 4: 87
• Misfire cal 1 (likely never reset): 795 2: 622 3: 773 4: 931
• Main relay voltage: 13.2V
• Airmass/comb. requested 150 mg/comb
• Airmass deviation 0-1%
• Engine power went from over 1,000,000 bhp (lol) quickly down to 0 (it’s at idle, likely doing calculations as I scrolled to the entry)
• No airmass trouble code detected
• No Lambda fuel cut
• No DTCs otherwise
• O2S1: between .1-.7V
• O2S2: .71V

New parts:

• CPS (1.5 yrs old, genuine Bosch done at dealer)
• DIC (1.5 yrs old, Genuine Saab/SEM 3.7)
• Plugs (~2-4k miles)
• Throttle body (6 mos. old, Hella (OES))
• MAF (2 months old, OEM)
• K&N open air filter (cleaned & re-oiled days ago, I think properly)
• Battery (brand new)
• Battery cable (brand new)
• All grounds cleaned
• ECU wiring harness rebuilt
• New fuel pump (Spectra Premium, 7 months old)
• Vacuum system fully smoke tested, all lines new and bad o-rings/gaskets replaced (2 months ago)

Potential problems:

• Injectors (in case leaky)
• MAF (in case got oily after air filter recharge)
• MAP
• Plugs (for signs of flooding)
• Purge valve
• Coolant temp sensor
• Thermostat
• Fuel pump check valve
• Fuel pressure regulator
• CPS with a scope

That's it! Thanks so much for reading - looking forward to hearing what you all have to say.
-Jake

this top post is constantly updated with new readings and things to check, so that it may become useful for anyone in the same boat

 

[ajakejyt]

I'll add that it is truly intermittent - hasn't happened since I changed the battery cable (which fixed a cold start cranking issue) and didn't happen for the rest of the day today.

Also worth noting that occasionally, the car will have a momentarily rough idle right after a warm restart.

 

[Doug]

I read on here recently an oiled air filter can contaminate the MAF sensor.......

 

[ajakejyt]

I read on here recently an oiled air filter can contaminate the MAF sensor.......

I've heard that too, which is why I'd want it inspected... The MAF is literally just a few weeks old, though, I oiled it like 3-4 days ago, and I did not over-oil that thing by any reasonable standard, I don't think...

 

[EdT]

Do the O2 sensor readings look reasonable while the car is idling?

I'm not sure how a T7 car behaves if the MAF is disconnected (other than obviously throwing a Check Engine light).

It sounds like the car is running rich at idle sometimes, whether that's from the MAF, the O2 sensors, or a bad temp sensor would be the question. Of course that's not an exhaustive list, either.

Your fuel economy doesn't seem unreasonable for "around town" driving in winter with plenty of cold starts--that's about what I'm getting in my Linear/manual wagon.

 

[ajakejyt]

Thanks for the reply, Ed. What would a reasonable range for the O2 sensors be? I can have a look later. That average economy was only one trip, though... I still feel like it’s low, but your experience is reassuring.

 

[EdT]

The front O2 sensor should be going high (close to 1 V) and low (close to 0V) regularly. It will probably change quicker than the Tech II update speed. The rear O2 sensor should be sitting somewhere around 0.5V or so and not bouncing around.

If the front sensor is seeing a mixture that's too rich, then it will more consistently read above 0.5V and so will the rear. In that case, something else is causing the issue. If the front sensor is thinking the mixture is lean and needs to be richer, it will be reading a lower voltage. If you see the rear sensor reading consistently high, then it's saying that the front sensor is erroneously reading lean (and requesting more fuel), while the rear sensor sees that there's probably too much fuel.

Anyway, have a look. There is plenty of information online about how the front and rear sensors should behave.

 

[ajakejyt]

Thanks, Ed. I edited the post above, but the O2S1 reading bounced between .1-.73V and O2S2 was at .71V. That doesn’t seem to square with what you said - but I’ll do some more research a bit later

 

[ajakejyt]

So after some digging, it seems like O2S2 should be around .45v and is really closer to .7v, meaning I’m running a bit rich, yes?

 

[EdT]

Yes, sounds like it's running rich. The rear sensor is only a check. So maybe the front sensor is giving a false signal, or the MAF is throwing things off by reporting more air than really is going into the engine.

 

[ajakejyt]

Perfect, this gives me some good stuff to go on. Thanks a ton!

 

[ajakejyt]

EDIT: NOT FIXED. SEE BELOW.

Update (for anyone interested/who runs into a similar issue in the future):

long story short? It was a bad (but still newish) crank position sensor and/or fuel pressure regulator. Both were changed out and seem to have done the trick Luckily, I had a Parts for Life warranty on the crank sensor.

longer story? It was a mix of thermostat/coolant temp sensor and crank position sensor. Rich running at idle was certainly due to an older thermostat/cts, but running rich after acceleration and difficult on warm restarts were definitely the cps.

 

[toxicavenger]

Dang mine does this every once in a while. I have a newer cps, and temp sensor. Usually when it happens I clean the throttle body and maf. It seems to work great for a while. Now you got me thinking.

 

[ajakejyt]

darn, seems we didn't fix the warm restart issue after all. Now, the car has a new CPS, fuel pressure regulator, thermostat, MAF, and coolant temp sensor - and I'm still running into the same issues, no stored codes on the Tech II. Although, I will say that when cranking long enough, the oil light went out and the battery light and check engine light stayed on, despite not showing any codes... Does this mean anything, or is this expected behavior? Wondering if I'm chasing an ECU issue now - I'm on a brew city boost stage 2 ecu. If it's not, we're looking at fuel tank check valves? Or leaky injectors? Or god knows what other electrical fault... Great.

Tech II data from when the car's ignition was in the on position, but rpms were zero for those interested:

• airmass/combustion: 1333 mg/comb
• Coolant temperature: 183 degrees F NOTICE THIS IS THE SAME COOLANT TEMP AS WHEN THE CAR WAS RUNNING RICH - DOES THAT MEAN ANYTHING?
• Airmass/combustion calculated: 455 mg/comb
• Airmass deviation from calculated: 23%
• Mass airflow 46.68 g/s
• Intake air temp 151 degrees F
• Atmospheric absolute pressure 102.6 kPa
• Charge air absolute pressure 102.5 kPa
• Manifold absolute pressure 103.1 kPa
• Preheating O2S 1 0%
• Preheating O2S 1 0 mA
• O2S 1 .46V
• Preheating O2S 2 0%
• " " 0 mA
• O2S 2 .46V
• Short term fuel trim 0%
• Purge adaptation 0%
• Additive adaptation -.23 mg/comb
• Multiplicative adaptation 5.97%
• Injection duration 0 ms
• Injection end angle 380 degrees
• Charge air control valve 2.0%
• charge air adaptation -8%
• Idle speed deviation -925 rpm
• Pedal position sensor 1 4.37V - IS THIS TOO HIGH?
• Pedal position sensor 2 .68V
• Throttle pos. sensor .16v
• Throttle pos. sensor .83v
• Throttle pos. sensor 4.20v - AGAIN, TOO HIGH?
• Canister purge valve 0%
• Fuel tank pressure -.156 kPa
• fuel tank pressure, filtered 0 kPa
• Ignition timing 2.9 degrees
• Combustion detection cylinder 0 μs
• “ “ 0 μs
• Main relay voltage: 11.9-12.0V (I think because it cranked for a while)
• Airmass/comb. requested 149 mg/comb - Is this value in line with what's expected given the ambient and coolant temps?
• Airmass deviation 2%
• Engine power 0 bhp (lol)
• No airmass trouble code detected
• No Lambda fuel cut
• No DTCs otherwise

New parts:

• CPS (brand new, genuine Bosch done at dealer)
• Fuel pressure regulator (brand new, Bosch brand)
• Thermostat (brand new, done at dealer)
• Coolant temp sensor (brand new, done at dealer)
• DIC (1.5 yrs old, Genuine Saab/SEM 3.7)
• Plugs (~4-6k miles)
• Throttle body (7 mos. old, Hella (OES))
• MAF (2 months old, OEM)
• K&N open air filter (cleaned & re-oiled days ago, I think properly)
• Battery (brand new)
• Battery cable (brand new)
• All grounds cleaned
• ECU wiring harness rebuilt
• New fuel pump (Spectra Premium, 8 months old)
• Vacuum system fully smoke tested, all lines new and bad o-rings/gaskets replaced (3 months ago)

Potential problems:

• Injectors (in case leaky)
• MAP
• Plugs (for signs of flooding)
• Purge valve
• Fuel pump check valve
• ECU

 

[Mimmi]

Although, I will say that when cranking long enough, the oil light went out and the battery light and check engine light stayed on, despite not showing any codes... Does this mean anything, or is this expected behavior?

Tech II data from when the car's ignition was in the on position, but rpms were zero for those interested:

• airmass/combustion: 1333 mg/comb
• Coolant temperature: 183 degrees F NOTICE THIS IS THE SAME COOLANT TEMP AS WHEN THE CAR WAS RUNNING RICH - DOES THAT MEAN ANYTHING?
• Airmass/combustion calculated: 455 mg/comb
• Airmass deviation from calculated: 23%
• Mass airflow 46.68 g/s
• Intake air temp 151 degrees F
• Atmospheric absolute pressure 102.6 kPa
• Charge air absolute pressure 102.5 kPa
• Manifold absolute pressure 103.1 kPa
• Preheating O2S 1 0%
• Preheating O2S 1 0 mA
• O2S 1 .46V
• Preheating O2S 2 0%
• " " 0 mA
• O2S 2 .46V
• Short term fuel trim 0%
• Purge adaptation 0%
• Additive adaptation -.23 mg/comb
• Multiplicative adaptation 5.97%
• Injection duration 0 ms
• Injection end angle 380 degrees
• Charge air control valve 2.0%
• charge air adaptation -8%
• Idle speed deviation -925 rpm
• Pedal position sensor 1 4.37V - IS THIS TOO HIGH?
• Pedal position sensor 2 .68V
• Throttle pos. sensor .16v
• Throttle pos. sensor .83v
• Throttle pos. sensor 4.20v - AGAIN, TOO HIGH?
• Canister purge valve 0%
• Fuel tank pressure -.156 kPa
• fuel tank pressure, filtered 0 kPa
• Ignition timing 2.9 degrees
• Combustion detection cylinder 0 μs
• “ “ 0 μs
• Main relay voltage: 11.9-12.0V (I think because it cranked for a while)
• Airmass/comb. requested 149 mg/comb - Is this value in line with what's expected given the ambient and coolant temps?
• Airmass deviation 2%
• Engine power 0 bhp (lol)
• No airmass trouble code detected
• No Lambda fuel cut
• No DTCs otherwise

New parts:

• CPS (brand new, genuine Bosch done at dealer)
• Fuel pressure regulator (brand new, Bosch brand)
• Thermostat (brand new, done at dealer)
• Coolant temp sensor (brand new, done at dealer)
• DIC (1.5 yrs old, Genuine Saab/SEM 3.7)
• Plugs (~4-6k miles)
• Throttle body (7 mos. old, Hella (OES))
• MAF (2 months old, OEM)
• K&N open air filter (cleaned & re-oiled days ago, I think properly)
• Battery (brand new)
• Battery cable (brand new)
• All grounds cleaned
• ECU wiring harness rebuilt
• New fuel pump (Spectra Premium, 8 months old)
• Vacuum system fully smoke tested, all lines new and bad o-rings/gaskets replaced (3 months ago)

Potential problems:

• Injectors (in case leaky)
• MAP
• Plugs (for signs of flooding)
• Purge valve
• Fuel pump check valve
• ECU

Oil light acts normal, because long start will raise oil pressure.
Airmass/combustion is way too much (normal it is around 130-180mg/c in idle).
Engine in normal temp? 183F is quite normal operational temp.
Mass airflow is also way too much.
Pedal and throttle pos sensors are OK.

Get rid of oiled K&N and replace it to original.

 

[thaistatos]

it does not make sense to take care of of these combustion specific values when engine speed is zero. In an ideal case the massflow should be zero, but sensor is not capable measuring 0.
When engine is running, massflow looks ok with 4,1g/s.

 

[ajakejyt]

Mimmi and all others - yes, the readings from the final post are from when the car thought it was on, but rpms were at 0. The new MAF appears to be functioning properly, according to the dealer, and it doesn’t seem like an open air filter makes a difference in this issue, according to my searches, but I certainly could be wrong.

Given this, is there a chance a fuel map on the ecu is corrupted? I ask this because both times I’ve taken tech ii readings for this, the ambient temp has been roughly the same and the coolant temp has been within 10°F or so of each other.

I don’t know what goes into a Trionic map versus others, but if the airmass expected is huge, then I’d expect the fuel demand to be huge. If that happens, it would flood the engine because it’s not getting the air it thinks it is - if I understand correctly.

Is there a significant chance a bad MAP sensor also show those same readings?

 

[thaistatos]

fuel is metered by reading the MAF sensor.

MAP Sensor seems to be ok.

• Atmospheric absolute pressure 102.6 kPa
• Charge air absolute pressure 102.5 kPa
• Manifold absolute pressure 103.1 kP

and in idle:
Manifold absolute pressure 35.9 kPa

the problem with not the open air filter but the oil.

 

[ajakejyt]

I was certain not to over-oil the filter, it was slightly pink, not red at all... i can spray down the maf with some crc maf cleaner but as it’s brand new, i’d be totally shocked if it was coated already. Again, will check.

In the mean time, is it possible that there’s a physical fault in the ecu and/or a corrupted fuel map?

 

[thaistatos]

There could always be an fault in the ECU, but it is not a common problem and highly unlikely.