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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I just took my car to my local shop
for an easy job of replacing pads which I brought (PBR METAL MASTERS)....

They replaced them and bled my system.....
So im driving in my car and the brakes are so mushy.
I have to depress my brakes so hard and so far to get even the slightest effect.

Whats wrong.... Since all is new, do they need time to break in...
How should I break in my pads/ fluid...

I feel as if I cant brake.... Whats going on??

If they seriosuly screwed up, I can take it to a major shop
and im sure they could bleed the system properly with no
mushiness when I apply brakes
 

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Sounds like they didn't pressure bleed. Looks like they got in more air than they got out.


What kind of shop and do you know what they did to bleed them?

I don't know much of the pads, but my cheapo satisfieds are super mushy too.
 

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It took me 8-10 nice hard stops to bed in my fronts, and a couple more days b/f they gripped really well. It probably takes less on new or machined discs. On some other sport-sedans, the recommendation is to bed in new brakes w/o coming to a full stop at the end, to prevent heat-treating the rotors unevenly. (Not sure if that applies here.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have no clue how they did it exactly... I wasnt there...


Just a nearby , family owned shop... nothing BIG like meineke or midas ...
I wish I knew....
No PBR metal masters are awesome and paid 45 bucks for them....
Theres no reason they should be mushy....

I didnt put in new rotors.
They were resurfaced either...
I seriosuly think they bled it wrong.
I will take it to another car shop I guess
and ask them to pressure bleed.
 

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Do these brake places know how to bleed brakes ??

Do they know how to talk with their customers regarding the break-in (bedding the pads) of their new brakes ??

I guess they do try..
Return and discuss this; this is a comeback if the customer is not happy...But IF they still subscribe to the old ...
"pump 'em upp - Clown"
"Hold 'em down - Town"
Brake fluid shoots all over the place:nono;
"Release - Niece"
"Again ! - Ken"
More brake fluid shoots all over the place:nono;
This is the old method, the way I used to do it... :cheesy:
And a good way to ruin an otherwise good master cylinder.
 

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Why the hell do people think its necessary to bleed the brakes when all thats being done is a pad replacement?

There is absoulutely no need to bleed the brakes when changing the rotors or pads. The only time the brakes need to be bled is when the hydraulic line has been opened, like when one changes a caliper, or a brake line, or if the brake fluid is being flushed.
 

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SAAMS SAAB said:
I didnt put in new rotors.
They were resurfaced either...
I seriosuly think they bled it wrong.
I will take it to another car shop I guess
and ask them to pressure bleed.
I'll read that as they were NOT resurfaced, either.

there is a possibility that the rotor 'hats' are hitting where the new pads are trying to go. Each pad is SLIGHTLY different; If you're hitting the lip of the old rotors, you're unable to brake very well at all.

Ask me how I know...

the way the brake system works is that the calipers made the pads barely ride the rotor; When you press the pedal, all that force goes into CLAMPING the rotor.

If the new pads are hitting an existing lip on the old rotors, there is a space before 99% of the pad is hitting the rotor. You end up using 50+ % of the pedal travel to get the pad TO the rotor, and the remaining force to clamp, hence, crappy brakes.

It's never recommended to put new pads on old rotors, esp without a resurface. I did, but I had to take an angle grinder and grind off the outer lips of both sides of both rotors, due to the gapping I mention above.

Best luck,
Bny
 

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earthworm said:
This is the old method, the way I used to do it... :cheesy:
And a good way to ruin an otherwise good master cylinder.
I still believe that if one bleeds brakes this way, and does NOT push the pedal to the floor (just constant pressure until bleed valve is retightened, repeat) then no damage is done and master cylinders live happy lives.

It's when this method is used and the pedal is mashed, 100% to the floor, then bleeder valves tightened that makes a mess of life.

And I've never bleed my brakes when doing pads/rotors, I fully agree with the above post. I unscrew the cap off the reservoir, and use a c-clamp to push pistons back in carefully; replace, pump brakes back out gently and off I go...

-Bny
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
hmmm frustrating....

I guess I shouldnt have bled them and just kept pads....

There is a slight lip on my rotors but nothing like you mentioned...

Tommorow, Ill take it to a better place
to bleed properly. If that solves the problem,
cool. If not, I have another problem on hand.
I was thinking, however, of replacing my rotors
with cross drilled , slotted rotors.

Just straight forward mushy brakes....
Air bubbles in the lines I think....
Hopefully Im right, because im redoing them
tommorow. Should I also get my rotors
resurfaced then??
 

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You check the inside of the rotors as well?

I doubt it, hard to do unless you take them off; At that point, most just replace...

You're seeing my point; a 1-2 mm lip, if the new pads rest against them, will cause brake chaos.

Best of luck,
Bny.
 

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brewtide said:
And I've never bleed my brakes when doing pads/rotors, I fully agree with the above post. I unscrew the cap off the reservoir, and use a c-clamp to push pistons back in carefully; replace, pump brakes back out gently and off I go...
The point of bleeding the brakes on our cars w. fixed/dual piston calipers, is to avoid pushing old fluid which was exposed to heat back into the lines. When I bled, and later drained/flushed/refilled the brake fluid about three years ago on the occasion of my first seized rear caliper, what came out was not worth being called brake fluid. I doubt if it was done when my brake pads were replaced the previous time.

Also, when you push the "dry" pistons in past the point they have been in a couple years, some air can get in from the space between the inner (hydraulic) and outer (dust) seal. And that is assuming the outer seal did not leak, and the piston or lip of the caliper is not rusted. You won't necessarily notice air and reduced braking on the rears (not until the caliper seizes up).

Not sure if that applies on the fronts, which are a different design.
 

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This makes sense; but I suppose, for my life, it's not very applicable, which is why I've never had 'an issue', to speak of.

Automatic + fast driving == new brakes every spring.

Constantly working on car and sometimes armed with a sawzall near brakelines == near annual brake fluid flushing....

But thanks for pointing out the issues with this technique.

-bny
 

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I'm having a similar issue with my wifes car. Same maker pads and rotors were purchased (not cheapo's) as my last change. I put a non directional finish on the rotors and bed in the brakes per standard practice but a totaly different feel. There isn't any more travel just stopping distance is greater. It takes a lot of pedal effort to stop. After a week I even pulled everything back off to make sure I didn't have a moment, check sweep area and even checked for air in system even though I didn't need to open the system for the work. Nothing... It's been over a month and still crappy. I'm wandering if I got a set of pads with hard (out of spec) material and will change them as soon as the weather breaks or I free up my garage because she (and I) feel uneasy driving it.
 

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PMI said:
Not sure if that applies on the fronts, which are a different design.
I was under the impression that we're talking about his front brakes, can someone clearify.

PMI said:
Also, when you push the "dry" pistons in past the point they have been in a couple years, some air can get in from the space between the inner (hydraulic) and outer (dust) seal. And that is assuming the outer seal did not leak, and the piston or lip of the caliper is not rusted.
Years? I've changed my front pads twice in 1 year already, the caliper pistons arn't sitting in the same position for that long. It just goes to show that vehicles that arn't driven often have more problems than vehicles that are drive often; low mileage isn't always the best thing for an old car.
 

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PMI said:
The point of bleeding the brakes on our cars w. fixed/dual piston calipers, is to avoid pushing old fluid which was exposed to heat back into the lines. When I bled, and later drained/flushed/refilled the brake fluid about three years ago on the occasion of my first seized rear caliper, what came out was not worth being called brake fluid. I doubt if it was done when my brake pads were replaced the previous time.

Also, when you push the "dry" pistons in past the point they have been in a couple years, some air can get in from the space between the inner (hydraulic) and outer (dust) seal. And that is assuming the outer seal did not leak, and the piston or lip of the caliper is not rusted. You won't necessarily notice air and reduced braking on the rears (not until the caliper seizes up). Agreed care must be taken when utilizing this practice. The pistons should be cleaned and I lubricate them and seals with clean DOT 4 prior to retracting them regardless of a bleed / no bleed brake job.

Not sure if that applies on the fronts, which are a different design.
Another good point by PMI is changing your fluid. It's not only the exposure to heat but the moisture DOT 4 absorbs over time that reduces it's boiling point which can cause fade or worse.
 

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Diosnoche said:
It just goes to show that vehicles that arn't driven often have more problems than vehicles that are drive often; low mileage isn't always the best thing for an old car.
<chuckle>agreed
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I took it back to have them redo my brakes
and re-bleed. They said they pressure bled.

Lo and behold, this time I actually stayed at the place
while they were doing my car....By the time I saw what they were
doing it was to late.... they were doing the up and down
method .... they lowered my car and guess what they said!!!

It seems to me you have a bad master cylinder... You need a
new one. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I knew they screwed up soo bad. F**K.
So screw that shop for life.... Now I have to
use my own expenses... to fix an otherwise good saab.
I drove it home, pumping brakes as they said...
I live one block away... So not much could be ruined
I hope.... So now I need to order a master cylinder
and have a REAL SHOP do the job.

Is this what I need ????

---- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Clutch-Master-Cylinder-1999-01-Saab-9-3-9-5_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118QQcategoryZ33730QQihZ005QQitemZ150112501005QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

--------- http://www.eeuroparts.com/productdetail.aspx?searchResults=1&code=4964
 
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