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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, there has been a lot of talk lately with adding hydrogen to the air being fed into the engine.

Let's not discuss the production matter of things (many options exists).

What I am interested in is the impacts of doing so. I figure you have to feed the Hydrogen after the AMM (red hot filament, could mean bang bang) and before the throttle. Suction from the N/A engine would pull in the hydrogen.

What would be the impact of using this system, increased heat being generated...

What would the gains be, some say cleaner exhaust.

What do you think?
 

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Hydrogen would explod as soon as it went into the hot chamber!


I am not sure you could make it work on a petrol engine, Hydrogen is very powerful and volitile!


I could be wrong?
 

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Have you got any urls for reference? Its very difficult to get anything out of google, as I just keep getting info about pure hydrogen powered cars.
 

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Sometime ago I read that it isn't viable to use hydrogen in conventional engines as those of our common cars, just because of the high temperatures on the combustion chamber.

But for the rotary engines as those from Mazda (for example), it has a substantial potential of use. The combustion chamber is different from the admission one.

The only actual problem is the storage of the hydrogen on the vehicle and the supply through the service stations.

So, rotary engines seams to be in good position...
 

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here's one, try injecting liquid oxygen:evil: (in very small amounts) or compressed oxygen, not compressed air. the result: more air/more fuel/more power, that being said, less need to get things going. it can be done, but do the research first.:cheesy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I am inspiring myself from this:

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/18/1638204&tid=187&tid=14

or

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=cfeb17de-d945-4db4-87a6-090911200e96

I don't want to spend 7500-11500$ for it, but I was wondering what effect it can have and also if it can be a DYI.

From a nice document on hydrogen (http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf), it's autoignition temperature is relatively high at 1085 ºF (585 ºC). What is the temperature of the engine block? Gasoline auto-ignition is 230 to 480 ºC.
 

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I agree about the storage and supply being the tough part.

According to the paper, the autoignition point of hydrogen is relatively high at 1085 deg F (585 deg C).

Therefore, if the hydrogen is sufficiently diluted by ambient air with a mixer or slight opening under vacuum near the hydrogen input you could do this. It wouldn't necessarily be any more volitile than oxygen when diluted with air (which is mostly nitrogen).

However, it appears that you could not introduce enough volume of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure to make much of a difference with your engine. Remember: the entire volume of one cylinder is only 0.5 liter. The mass of hydrogen contained in that small volume at just below atmospheric pressue would be negligible.

It's not worth it.
 

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what about this?

what about electrolysis for getting hydrogen? i have a word document that i downloaded with pictures on running a car purely on hydrogen and oxygen gases split from water using electrolysis. im not sure if it would really work but i suppose you could apply it to get hydrogen (and more oxygen as well, BONUS) into your engine. with rising gas prices im desperately looking for a cheap little leafblower or something to test this theory on. if you want a link ill look for it and post it.
 

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Electrolysis does result in hydrogen and oxygen. However, you're not going to be able to contain much hydrogen at atmospheric pressure.

And, while we're at it, electrolysis requires DC power, so DON'T PUT A WIRE PLUGGED INTO THE WALL INTO WATER!!:nono;

Additionally, you're NOT getting ahead on energy costs by making your own hydrogen!! The electricity used will cost a great deal more than the gasoline, especially when you factor in the cost to compress the hydrogen into a storage tank.

Don't you think that other people have thought of this before? It isn't commonplace for a reason. GIVE IT UP!!!

As for rising gasoline prices, do the math! At 12,000 miles per year and 25 mpg, your gasoline costs are $40 per month per dollar per gallon. So, if gas prices go up a dollar, it's only an additional $40 per month. Deal with it!
 

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wow, erm. lets see this system that i have written down here is on-demand and uses the car battery (12 volts is minimal but isnt the amperage really high?). the gases are in a sealed container and build up their own pressure before the engine is started, and then a control circuit controls how much gas is generated depending on how much throttle the car gets to keep that pressure up. im suspicious of it but if it at least can work it might be worth a try.
 

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saabchilten said:
wow, erm. lets see this system that i have written down here is on-demand and uses the car battery (12 volts is minimal but isnt the amperage really high?). the gases are in a sealed container and build up their own pressure before the engine is started, and then a control circuit controls how much gas is generated depending on how much throttle the car gets to keep that pressure up. im suspicious of it but if it at least can work it might be worth a try.
1. Car battery = 300 to 600 amps @ 12 volts = 3.6 to 7.2 kW = 4.8 to 9.6 bhp. The first law of thermodynamics says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, if you are using the battery as the source to split water into hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis, you can only create that much potential energy at any given time. And don't give me any baloney about the 'explosiveness' of hydrogen. Study your chemistry first. Hydrogen and oxygen are at a stable state as water. Adding electrical energy raises the potential energy of both the hydrogen and oxygen to a metastable state in direct proportion to the energy input. That is, you will only get out what you put in. Which is 4.8 to 9.6 hp. Wow. What a load.

2. Gases build up their own pressure. What universe are you in? In my universe hydrogen is so light that it would take several atmosperes pressure (perhaps 1000 psi or so) to store enough hydrogen to fuel a vehicle with a tank smaller than, say, your WHOLE CAR. (At 1 bar, 1 kg of hydrogen takes up 11 cubic meters - literally larger than a C900.)

3. Storing hyrdogen is such a problem that a whole industry is devoted to it:
http://www.materialstoday.com/pdfs_6_9/Zuttel.pdf#search='density%20of%20hydrogen'

4. What metal will you use for the anode in your system? The anode in an electrolysis system is sacrificial -- that is, it corrodes very quickly. Even the most noble metals (gold, nickel, etc.) will not last long. And, as an extra bit of fun, the anode corrosion both robs energy from the system and contaminates the oxygen made from the system.

If you still want to do it, knock yourself out. You've been warned.
 

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Hang on, car batteries are rubbish as electrical storage devices, 12 Volts is not place to start from when you want to store shed loads power, the next generation of cars should be using 36 Volts batteries or even 48 Volts.

Less amperes but potentially they will be much more powerful, lithium ion is way more powerful than lead acid or gel cells and still there a more storage technologies on the way.

The 600 figure you see on a battery is its crancking ability not its continous output, it would be empty of power in 60 seconds at that rate and lose power along the way.

There are many duel fuel cars using alternators as motors, so under braking they stop rotating under electrical force and start to absorb power from the stopping action and there lots of power needed to stop a car, there is also lots of power to start moving a car which is the hard part.

Cars will have to be electric and should have been electrically powered, with over 95% efficentsy its always been a winner and stronger torque with much higher rpms and less moving parts, its so much stronger than a petrol engine.
Simpler to repair and with a longer life span, massive earth movers and diggers use diesel generators but everything done with electrical power, they know its better than a combustion engine all day long.

Less energy is wasted as heat and more is converted into rotation, less noise, and with brush less technology there is almost no sound when a unit is sealed, only a small whine at 9000 RPMS,

4 small electrical motors on each wheel could be way more powerful than todays super cars, each motor could make 150Kwatts of power, thats 600Kwatts of output which is just shocking! no horrible gear box! this would get to its tops speed in 8 seconds with only wind resistance and tyre friction being the 2 big things to over come.

That would be 200 mph easy even if you had the aero dynamics of a bus! lol:cheesy:

Dont worry about whats going to be the replacement fuel for the next generation, as we use it every day, it just waiting for some massive company to make a production model and sell a million! and then watch everybody else copy and follow suit! until then, what ever sells will stay at the top, super cars and big gulp engines have had there day now in a world with an unstable fuel price and unstable supply.

There is less petrol fuel in the world today than we have used up to this point, so we have reached the peaked, an estimated 55% has been used and now we could get through the next 45% faster than 20 years as some countries grow at insane rates! and there is more air traffic and more industry in the Far East now, China will be the super power in 20 years not the USA.

Only two ways around this, earn more money so fueling your car does not affect you or get a mountain bike and get really fit and cycle everywhere.

Its a nice day so am going for a cycle, its free! and the only boost i get is from my own legs so i better eat my Weetabix:lol:
 

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ShadowWorks said:
Hang on, car batteries are rubbish as electrical storage devices, 12 Volts is not place to start from when you want to store shed loads power, the next generation of cars should be using 36 Volts batteries or even 48 Volts.

Less amperes but potentially they will be much more powerful, lithium ion is way more powerful than lead acid or gel cells and still there a more storage technologies on the way.

The 600 figure you see on a battery is its crancking ability not its continous output, it would be empty of power in 60 seconds at that rate and lose power along the way.
Yes. I figured that I would give it the benefit of the doubt since he said that the system would throttle back now and again. My point: 5 or 10 hp peak output.
 

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Guys, electrolysis and then burning hydrogen again requires energy not gain! You only get about 85% of the power back by burning the hydrogen as you wasted by electrolysing it. So you end up burning more gas!
 

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gah OKAY!! thank you for beating on me! i was suspicious of this as well. god, NOW that i know it wont work i guess i wont try it. :evil:
 
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