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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

chaps i need a little advice.

I have a 2004 53 plate 95 Saloon 2.0 LPT that has done only 7,000 miles so just broken in.

Now, i originally got this and planned to get the BSR tuning mod to get it 68 BPH and costs £550

but now I saw the Hirsch mod which is approved which only goes to 210 BHP and costs £850

Now i want just a little more overtaking power really and a little bit more push on the motorway in case of needing to aviod idiots who are weaving lanes.

However, obviously that extra power will cause more wear on drive shafts, seals, make the engine run hotter etc..

Now for me what i want to do is keep the car till at least 100,000 miles to make sure i get my £14,000 back on the purchase so i don't want to shag the engine.

Any ideas, and also is there any real difference betweeen the hirsch and the BSR one.

Here is the link to the Hirsch mod which states it is only software?

http://www.hirsch-performance.ch/pdf/9-5%202.0t%20210%20PS.pdf

Any ideas?

Thanks

Daniel
 

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Hiya Dan,

The hirsch upgrade is the only one that keeps your saab warranty intact, that could well be worth the extra outlay ;) plus I dont think you'd notice the missing 8 bhp at all!:)

Also looking at the spec the torque and bhp being lower should create less wear I guess, and you still get 0-100kms in 7.7s and 60-100kms in 6.8s :cool:

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sad problem is that Derby Saab just quoted me with £938 for the change over.


I was then amazed to find that Notts Saab did not even know what a Hirsch upgrade is, they are ringing me back.

Then I found out that Notts want £308 for a minor service (i.e. oil change) and £400 for a major one (oil and filter change!). They have just opened and i am not sure they will take much custom away from Derby who are at least £50 cheaper on the services!

Lets see about the Hirch.


The other plan is wait till it is out of warenty and then do the BSR upgrade but not thrash it too much!!!

Thing is as well is that you don't have a boost gauge so you are not sure when you are taking it to the limit!

Thanks
 

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djrpowell said:
The other plan is wait till it is out of warenty and then do the BSR upgrade but not thrash it too much!!!

Thing is as well is that you don't have a boost gauge so you are not sure when you are taking it to the limit!

Thanks
I wouldnt worry about the thrashing it bit, you are only talking 210 bhp, several of us are running 20-30 even 70+ bhp more than that with no problems, and on big mileage 2.0 litre cars.:lol:

You can fit your own boost guage too if you like, the factory ones arent accurate anyway;)

When you get the 200 bhp plus upgrade you will definately feel that thats how the car should have been produced in the first place, of course if you got the BSR with the PPC module you could de tune the car if you ever felt the need ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, i think that you are right, i will go for the BSR one and see.

All you guys can't be wrong!
 

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Chris 9-5 said:
You can fit your own boost guage too if you like, the factory ones arent accurate anyway;)
They're plenty accurate. They just don't read boost, they read air-mass/combustion, which is different. ;)

I would go with Hirsch, because you get what you pay for. ;)

Adrian~
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So why is Hirsch better than the BSR, i thought since BSR are sweedish that they would be better
 

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I didn't see any Hirsch engineers involved in the new production car top speed world record. I think BSR know what they are doing.

http://www.bsrab.se/

You are always going to pay more for Hirsch products. I hate to think how much money it has cost Hirsch to get approved by Saab. Hirsch have to re-coup that outlay.
 

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djrpowell said:
Sad problem is that Derby Saab just quoted me with £938 for the change over.


I was then amazed to find that Notts Saab did not even know what a Hirsch upgrade is, they are ringing me back.

Then I found out that Notts want £308 for a minor service (i.e. oil change) and £400 for a major one (oil and filter change!). They have just opened and i am not sure they will take much custom away from Derby who are at least £50 cheaper on the services!
I assume you mean the new Saab dealer P J Evans? Its just that I travel up from Essex to Nottingham Saab ( www.nottinghamsaab.co.uk ), cos they are so damn good, have you tried them?
 

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Adrian W said:
They're plenty accurate. They just don't read boost, they read air-mass/combustion, which is different. ;) Adrian~
Thats what I love about you Adrian, "the boost guage is plenty accurate it just doent read boost!" .....................thats a bit like my bank statement its is plenty accurate just doesnt know about the credit cards:cheesy:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah, sorry Chris they are the people.

I may be wrong but the service prices are higher than both Derby and Stoke Saab so that is all i have to go on.

Not sure about the rest as i tend to do any work with my brother in law who is an automotive specialist.

Also they said they would ring me back about the Hirsch upgrade from them, but they have not got back to me yet?

Like you said they are probably ok but from the data i can see so far, they are a bit more expensive on the service side.
 

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Hi had a simular conversation with a guy on the forums a couple of months ago he too has a LPT 9-5 and he went for the stage 1 BSR ppc and he is absolutly thrilled with it....His name is Woodman so if you want to drop him a line and ask him some questions i am sure he will be happy to answer. I have Bsr,d my 9-3 lpt vert and am more than pleased my vert has done 18k i have not noticed it running hotter or any minus points not even fuel...good luck:cheesy:
 

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Chris 9-5 said:
Thats what I love about you Adrian, "the boost guage is plenty accurate it just doent read boost!" .....................thats a bit like my bank statement its is plenty accurate just doesnt know about the credit cards:cheesy:
Well it isn't actually a "boost gauge" ... it is both precise and accurate ... at reading air-mass/combustion. ;) Edit: Why do you want to know "boost" anyway? Air-mass/combustion actually tells you how much air gets into your cyllinders. It's MUCH more useful than "boost pressure".

Anyway, Hirsch also have factory backing and all the factory software necessary to tune ECU's.

As an example, the T7 ECU has over 1,000 individual MAPs. Do you think these are actually labelled so that all the tuners can know which ones to change to get power properly? :lol:

Imagine, hypothetically, your tuner decides (totally by accident) that the knock-retard map is the "right one" to alter. Now your engine makes more power ... but only at the expense of your pistons. :lol:

I'm NOT trying to say that all of the tuners do this ... only that Hirsch know with 100% certainty which maps should be altered ... and EXACTLY how do alter them. One of Hirsch's tuners actually WROTE the original T8 Aero ECU map. ;)

But hey, you can buy BSR if it makes you happy to save the money. It's a free planet. :)

Adrian~
 

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Sorry to not include this with my previous post.

With T5, since T5 is pretty simple, most tuners can get you, what I consider to be, safe power. It may be different from what some consider to be "safe" power ... but I doubt you'll ruin your engine for it.

With T7, 95/100 tuned ECU's are probably OK ... but, because there are SO MANY MAPs in the T7 ECU, sometimes there will be errors.

Usually, it's ok, but YOU yourself must weigh the cost in risk to your engine, against the cost in risk to your wallet, and decide what is more important. :)

I hate to seem personally biased, but I also hate to see people take a risk they are not even aware of. :cry: So I only say this so you will know that there is, at least, a slightly higher risk of "problems" if you go with BSR.

In fact, if *I* myself spent years tuning these ECU's, and I tried to tune your T7 ECU, I still would not do as well as Hirsch do, and I know a LOT about ECU tuning. :confused: So spend your money wisely.

I hope no-one bans me for this. Its just my oppinion. :cry: I'd be a hypocrit not to voice it, because I believe information should be as public as possible.

Adrian~
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I see what you mean.


THing is is that is why i asked i want to know the risks so i can make an informed choice.

Actually Chris's garage in Notss seem to do a different type of tuning from MAP TUN

who are these guys?

Thanks
 

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Adrian W said:
I hate to seem personally biased, but I also hate to see people take a risk they are not even aware of. :cry: So I only say this so you will know that there is, at least, a slightly higher risk of "problems" if you go with BSR.

In fact, if *I* myself spent years tuning these ECU's, and I tried to tune your T7 ECU, I still would not do as well as Hirsch do, and I know a LOT about ECU tuning. :confused: So spend your money wisely.

I hope no-one bans me for this. Its just my oppinion. :cry: I'd be a hypocrit not to voice it, because I believe information should be as public as possible.

Adrian~
So I assume you would also say that in your opinion:

"there is, at least, a slightly higher risk of "problems" if you go with BSR or any tuner otherthan Hirsch"

Is that what you mean Adrian :confused:
 

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djrpowell said:
Actually Chris's garage in Notss seem to do a different type of tuning from MAP TUN - who are these guys?

Thanks
Nottingham saab are a Maptun fitting agent, however mine is a Speedparts Stage 4 and they are happy to work with what ever the customer wants.

BSR upgrades are available from www.partsforsaabs.com
Speedparts information can be gained from www.speedparts.se (swedish)
Maptun information available from www.maptun.com
Hirsch, you know about.
Abbott Racing www.abbottracing.com/
and SQR (I know nothing about them :( )

All are different prices and all have a different fan base :p
 

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Chris 9-5 said:
So I assume you would also say that in your opinion:

"there is, at least, a slightly higher risk of "problems" if you go with BSR or any tuner otherthan Hirsch"

Is that what you mean Adrian :confused:
Yeah. :confused: But, before you criticize, or accuse me of just being a "fan" of Hirsch, consider that only Hirsch can actually call up the Saab factory engineers and ASK them which maps should be altered. Should the need for such a call arise. The tuners at Hirsch are privaledged to the original design of all the Trionic ECU's. One of the tuners was even there during the design process Doesn't that mean something to anyone else here? It means a lot to me. :confused:

The other tuners work hard ... and, most of the time, deliver power and reliability. But I feel that people need to know that there is a lower-risk option out there. This doesn't mean that the other tuners don't work hard; they simply weren't lucky enough to have access to the information which Hirsch have access to.

The other tuners have to reverse-engineer each type of ECU, and that's a lot harder than simply re-programming it. Those tuners give-forth a noble effort, but, ultimately, Hirsch have the advantage because they do not need to reverse-engineer anything ... they saw how it was built in the first-place.

You can decide for yourself if the risk is worth the amount you save. But I know which tuner I would use.

Adrian~
 

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Adrian W said:
Yeah. :confused: But, before you criticize, or accuse me of just being a "fan" of Hirsch, ~
No critcism intened or implied just wanted a more holistic reply.

Adrian W said:
But I know which tuner I would use.....Adrian~
I think we've worked that out.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yeah too true, also if you have a shagged out old aero worth a couple of grand then it is a little less to risk than a brand new saab with 7k on the clock with a new engine in warrenty!



Hence, anyone know of a cheap hirsch upgrade place?
 
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