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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Please help.

I acquired a car that was put off th road because of a broken automatic g-box. It stayed still for some 4 years.

Now, engine turns on and runs but there is NO OIL PRESSURE AT ALL. I mean, when I take out the low oil pressure switch and start endine, no oil is coming out.

I took old oil (which was really thick) out but then filled up with some recently drained used oil just to see if that cures the prob. No. Did not help.

I took out oil pressure relief valve and it did not appear to be stuck or otherwise compromised. Installed back. No pressure.

I primmed the pump through opening behind oil filter housing. Did not help.

What would you say could be the problem. To me it seems that oil pump does not get to suck up the oil (as it apparently is turning but gives no pressure at all) - it just turns without oil in there. Primming did not help.

Could the oil pick up tube be the culprit - I mean, needs to be cleaned. Could it be so that sitting for 4 years the pick up was grown around with the oil sludge and now is blocked?

If so, could that be remedied somehow by blowing from the side of the pumt into that pick up channel to dislodge that supposed sludge? Maybe blowing into behind oil filter housing could help?

Is it worth to remove the pump if at this stage (as most probably it`s about the pick-up tube)?

How can I clean the thing? I suppose oil flush agen will not do it`s job if it will be just added into the sump (as the oil is not pumped) or is it still worth to do it?
Maybe I should take out the oil and fill up the sump with petrol to dissolve any sludge and gunk (without starting engine of course).

So, what you guys suggest? I don`t want to pull the engine just to see what pick-up tube looks like now. Would like to try everything else first.

Thank`s in advance for you help!
 

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Not sure about 16V cars but I did have Oil pressure problem on my 8V after head gasket/timing chain/oil pump job. It was the oil pick up tube that goes in the oil pump and should be pressed correctly with timing chain cover...It is a pain to fix, think that timing chain cover must go off, but maybe you are lucky (if that is a issue anyway). Sorry for ruff explanation, but I didn't do it (my father did) and search function is disabled so I cant find that thread. Hopefully you know what I am talking about or someone (Jim maybe) will come soon to clear it up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thank`s Milos!

I understand what you`re talking about. But on his car timing cover and pump was not removed. So, pick up tube should be where it was fixed 18 years ago at assembly. I`m sure on it.

It looks like the pump is empty because also from relief valve opening nothing came out. It was a bit oily but not that some oil was coming out of there.

Now, what would you say about filling the oil pan with some 3 liters of petrol to wash some sludge out of there?

And yes, this engine is also very, very loud (apparently because of no oil in hydraulic lifters). I just hope I did not break this engine while iddling at zero oil pressure.
 

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I have had a sludge problem too :cheesy:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164117 (if you are interested)
You can see on photos that engine was covered with lot of sludge, but oil pick up tube was as good/clean as new. Not saying that it is same in your case though. Not sure about petrol cleaning method, I did it but with opened engine. I have used hot water + engine detergent followed with pressurised petrol and oil mixture (not engine oil but oil from which they produce petrol). It came out good, but never tried with engine in car.
Oil pick up is large in diameter, so I would think that maybe some smaller oil passage is clogged due to engine sludge and years with no usage. Maybe you should try with some compressed air through pick up tube....
Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
well, I filled it up with 3,5 litres of petrol. Will leave overnight and pour out tomorrow morning. Then clean oil and try to start engine.

the same time I was checking with a piece of wire and I`m afraid there was something dislodged/moving in the oil pan. I was checking through dipstick opening and drain plug hole.

Is that possiblww that oil pick up tube for some reason is out of place/broken off from the mount? To best of my knowledge it is normally pretty hard bolted to the engine block ...

Strange. If tomorrow, new oil won`t show any difference, the engine is coming out. that will be my first engine pull, whoops.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Milos,

Is pick up tube hard-bolted to the block or is it swinging in it`s bracket?
And, can you see end of the pick up tube when you remove oil pump?
Can you from oil pump`s side find, see and pull back the pick up tube into it`s proper location?

I think I`m slowly preparing myself for engine pull :cry:.
 

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Pick up tube is bolted/fixed to the oil pan, no swing as I recall.
With engine in the car it is hard to see the pick up tube end, flash lamp could help a bit (I suppose you are talking about top part of tube). And again, if we are talking about top end of it, if lucky you can put it in proper location. If you are asking about bottom (bolted) part, I don't think that you can see or manipulate it.

edit: you can use some metal tube 5-6 mm OD for manipulating pick up tube top end.
 

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See if you can loan an endoscope or boroscope. You can buy cheap fibre-optic usb ones that work reasonably well. You will need a right angle attachment and use the oil filler or turbo oil return pipe for access. It's worth a try to escape the dreaded engine pull when in the end it's an oil pressure release plunger that's not seating, even after cleaning. Yes, I've had that too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
well, I cleaned oil pressure relief valve and installed it back in. I don`t think it`s making problem.

after petrol over night, new oil filled, pump primed I started the engine with oil pressure sensor removed - it was bubling a bit of oil out off that hole but not as it was making any pressure. When closed with finger it did not push any oil around. Don`t know, maybe that`s just my primed oil which was pushedd out by some air that pump was moving around. Still no pressure.


How bad the engine might have suffered if I already have had engine turning like that for experiments - I would say some 10-15 min all together. Remeber - with no oil.
 

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You could try forcing oil in the sensor hole under pressure.This would; lubricate your bearings, prime the pump, and possibly clear any blockage, if present. Perhaps a bicycle pump or similar, filled with oil and connected with an adapter or rubber bung with a hole in it. Worth a try? Certainly worth doing if you're planning to run the engine much more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, but that would fill up just the channel to the pump and not past it, right? Pump would not let anything past it while it`s not turning.

So, no my problem seem to be that pump is not picking up enough or not picking up at all the oil. I tried to blow my mouth pressure into the sensor opening but was not sure in which direction that went - back to the pump or through ail filter and into the system. But, yes, tyre pump pressure (if I can attach it really good there) would make sense. Now need to come up wiha a clever idea as to the bung.

Is it possible that oil pick up tube might have been dislocated by itself, i.e., if nobody had opened up the sump and fiddled in there including around the pick up tube? I doubt that it`s possible for the tube itself to fall out of it`s place ...
 

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Yes, but that would fill up just the channel to the pump and not past it, right? Pump would not let anything past it while it`s not turning. ...
You will get leakage past the pump with enough pressure. Remember, it is only pushing air past the pump until you get oil in it. There is no valve in the pump only gears. At the very least it will fill the pump pumping chamber. I know, I've done it whilst rebuilding engine. If you do this, it will pressurise the whole lubrication system including cams.

One more thing, and it's a long shot, you could over-fill the sump up over the gearbox/tranny joint level so the level is over the top of pick-up tube, so oil will be sucked into pump whether pick-up tube is present or not. Don't rev the engine 'cause the oil will be thrashed around by the crank. It's worth a try to see if you can get pressure. You've nothing to lose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You will get leakage past the pump with enough pressure. Remember, it is only pushing air past the pump until you get oil in it. There is no valve in the pump only gears. At the very least it will fill the pump pumping chamber. I know, I've done it whilst rebuilding engine. If you do this, it will pressurise the whole lubrication system including cams.

One more thing, and it's a long shot, you could over-fill the sump up over the gearbox/tranny joint level so the level is over the top of pick-up tube, so oil will be sucked into pump whether pick-up tube is present or not. Don't rev the engine 'cause the oil will be thrashed around by the crank. It's worth a try to see if you can get pressure. You've nothing to lose.
ohh, that`s good point about overfilling the oil. Now it`s ~ 1 cm below block/tranny joint level.

when I started to fiddle with this car the oil was ~ at the joint level because there was/is no dipstick & filler tube on this engine but only the plug where the filler tube goes in (another strange thing about this car - was it maybe automatic g-box spec like that?

What the level then should be (how much above the joint) to get to where the upper end of the pick up tube is?
 

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About 2cm (20mm) should do it. Enough to get it over the pick-up orifice in the block. I can't see much danger of more if you feel like it, provided you don't rev the engine. It's only going to splash it around the engine, which will be glad to see it. This is how engines were lubricated before pressurised lubrication systems. It might smoke a bit when you start it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
OK.
Will add then 1-2 more litres of oil in there and then try starting the engine.

If that will cure no oil pressures I will be clear that oil pick up tube is not functional.

Again - would anyone dare to cmment how much damage might be done tom engine by iddiling it without oil for total time of 10-20 min (and who knows how much more while at prevoius owner)?
 

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OK.
Again - would anyone dare to cmment how much damage might be done tom engine by iddiling it without oil for total time of 10-20 min (and who knows how much more while at prevoius owner)?
Impossible to say. Not good though. It depends how much was left in the bearing surfaces. The most damage will have been to the crank bearings IMO. If there is damage I think you will hear it, after the cams have quietened down. When you get oil pressure it would be a good idea to install an oil pressure gauge, if only temporarily, to get an indication of bearing clearances.
 

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when I started to fiddle with this car the oil was ~ at the joint level because there was/is no dipstick & filler tube on this engine but only the plug where the filler tube goes in (another strange thing about this car - was it maybe automatic g-box spec like that?
Automatic has the same dipstick like manual :eek:
 

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Could it be, that the drive dog on the oil pump gear is broken off? I have heard of this happening. In this case, symptoms would be exactly as you describe: no pressure and no explanation why. I guess if you're getting bubbling this is less likely, but the broken dog could be dragging around in there causing some sort of intermittent function, not strong enough to do any oiling but strong enough to make the system bubble a bit out the hole as you describe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I`ll be doing "overfill test" to check what it does then. If no changes, engine is coming out. It needs to come out also because I`m planning to change the broken automatic g-box with a manual.

Thank`s for your input!
 
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