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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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You have a new job this weekend! Take more and better pictures! It looks great but we need more detail of that sweet ride.
 

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Your car looks great!!!!!!! Can't wait for mine to be done too!!! What stage are you running on the Nordic PPC?
 

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Now that we have more than 1 person with an Aftermarket/Generic Intercooler, I am wondering the effects this has on the car. We really need a dyno sheet with and without it, and then another with it after being tuned with a PPC to see what, if any effects it has.

This mod looks great aesthically but I am skeptical, due to the fact that no one has done any engineering on it regarding boost loss, heat soak, CFM...

Am I wrong or could this mod actually hinder (or potentially damage) the engine?

Saabing9-3 how about getting a dyno pull or two on her now? because I'm sure with the mods you have (PPC, intake, and full exhaust) you should know what the power should be without the intercooler, this way we can tell what effects the intercooler present.
 

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KrOlDoG8 said:
Now that we have more than 1 person with an Aftermarket/Generic Intercooler, I am wondering the effects this has on the car. We really need a dyno sheet with and without it, and then another with it after being tuned with a PPC to see what, if any effects it has.

This mod looks great aesthically but I am skeptical, due to the fact that no one has done any engineering on it regarding boost loss, heat soak, CFM...

Am I wrong or could this mod actually hinder (or potentially damage) the engine?

Saabing9-3 how about getting a dyno pull or two on her now? because I'm sure with the mods you have (PPC, intake, and full exhaust) you should know what the power should be without the intercooler, this way we can tell what effects the intercooler present.
The intercoolers do NOT give you more horsepower AT ALL.
It helps you to KEEP your horsepower better, even in hot weather.

My 9-3SS Aero is stage 3 tuned, when it's hot outside my car performs almost as an original 210HP Aero after 2 full gas gears, because my intercooler is NOT front mounted, i have the original.
So a bigger, front mounted intercooler is great för the performance!
And this is a fact. ;)
 

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PaaNis said:
The intercoolers do NOT give you more horsepower AT ALL.
It helps you to KEEP your horsepower better, even in hot weather.

My 9-3SS Aero is stage 3 tuned, when it's hot outside my car performs almost as an original 210HP Aero after 2 full gas gears, because my intercooler is NOT front mounted, i have the original.
So a bigger, front mounted intercooler is great för the performance!
And this is a fact. ;)
It helps you to KEEP your horsepower better? How do you know?? All I'm saying is that no one knows how these custom/aftermarket intercoolers interact with our cars. No one has engineered or tested them for our cars or proved that it even cools charged air any better than stock at all!!

Intercoolers are supposed to cool down charged air resulting in a denser, and more knock resistant charge going into the engine, which provides the engine with the possibility to adjust timing and fuel accordingly to make more power. With these aftermarket intercoolers we know none of their characteristics compared to the stock one. And with the new one being around half as tall and twice as thick I am willing to bet that when the cooling fans turn on most of the air goes up and over the intercooler (path of least resistance) which ends up overheating the intercooler and reducing performance even more, did you think of that? So yes on the highway (air pusing through the intercooler) it's probably great but at an intersection in the summer it's probably horrible, that's my guess.

when it's hot outside my car performs almost as an original 210HP Aero after 2 full gas gears because my intercooler is NOT front mounted, i have the original. This is very possible, but my question is; how do you know that the one that Saabing9-3 installed is any better than stock or exhibits any positive attributes to the car other than now it's in front of the A/C condenser? You don't!

So a bigger, front mounted intercooler is great för the performance! Wrong again, I think what you mean to say is a more efficient (better internal airflow, external airflow, and heat exchanging capabilities) is great for performance. If you just install a bigger intercooler that you know nothing about you most likely are just going to end up lowering the max boost pressure and gaining a huge lag period as the turbo tries to "fill up" the oversized intercooler.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Glad you guys like it, I plan on buying a digital camera tomorrow so i'll get some better pics, these were shot last night with my cell phone. The intercooler wasn't that hard to do, once you take our your stock Intercooler the A/C condenser slides right back in to intercooler spot perfectly then you have pleanty of room for an FMIC. I'm using a 12x28x3 FMIC with 3in oulets( I sugesst when you do this getting one with 2.5in outlets ) I had to use reducers so I could use my 2.5 in aluminum piping! The longes part was figureing how to take off the bumper but after that it went smooth! I have the Nordic stage 2 PPC, but when I got it from genuine the manuel wasn't in it so the car still isn't tuned yet, I talked to Nick and the manual has been archived so i'm waiting to get it so I can get my car tuned. But as is with the FMIC, Down pipe, Exhaust and Intake I can still notice a good gain even before the PPC has tuned it. I plan on going to Genuine SAAB on the 21st of FEB to have it tuned by the guys from Nordic so i'll had some injectors and have them tune it to a stage 3! I'll post dyno sheet when I go and more pics of the install.

kroldog8 - once you take out your stock intercooler you'll see, it looks very suseptible to heak soak it's only an in wide and the end tanks are plastic, so up grading to the FMIC I think will help.
 

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Saabing9-3 said:
Glad you guys like it, I plan on buying a digital camera tomorrow so i'll get some better pics, these were shot last night with my cell phone. The intercooler wasn't that hard to do, once you take our your stock Intercooler the A/C condenser slides right back in to intercooler spot perfectly then you have pleanty of room for an FMIC. I'm using a 12x28x3 FMIC with 3in oulets( I sugesst when you do this getting one with 2.5in outlets ) I had to use reducers so I could use my 2.5 in aluminum piping! The longes part was figureing how to take off the bumper but after that it went smooth! I have the Nordic stage 2 PPC, but when I got it from genuine the manuel wasn't in it so the car still isn't tuned yet, I talked to Nick and the manual has been archived so i'm waiting to get it so I can get my car tuned. But as is with the FMIC, Down pipe, Exhaust and Intake I can still notice a good gain even before the PPC has tuned it. I plan on going to Genuine SAAB on the 21st of FEB to have it tuned by the guys from Nordic so i'll had some injectors and have them tune it to a stage 3! I'll post dyno sheet when I go and more pics of the install.

kroldog8 - once you take out your stock intercooler you'll see, it looks very suseptible to heak soak it's only an in wide and the end tanks are plastic, so up grading to the FMIC I think will help.
I'm assuming you picked up a generic I/C? Where did you get the piping from? What about mouting? Thanks.
 

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KrOlDoG8 said:
It helps you to KEEP your horsepower better? How do you know?? All I'm saying is that no one knows how these custom/aftermarket intercoolers interact with our cars. No one has engineered or tested them for our cars or proved that it even cools charged air any better than stock at all!!

Intercoolers are supposed to cool down charged air resulting in a denser, and more knock resistant charge going into the engine, which provides the engine with the possibility to adjust timing and fuel accordingly to make more power. With these aftermarket intercoolers we know none of their characteristics compared to the stock one. And with the new one being around half as tall and twice as thick I am willing to bet that when the cooling fans turn on most of the air goes up and over the intercooler (path of least resistance) which ends up overheating the intercooler and reducing performance even more, did you think of that? So yes on the highway (air pusing through the intercooler) it's probably great but at an intersection in the summer it's probably horrible, that's my guess.

when it's hot outside my car performs almost as an original 210HP Aero after 2 full gas gears because my intercooler is NOT front mounted, i have the original. This is very possible, but my question is; how do you know that the one that Saabing9-3 installed is any better than stock or exhibits any positive attributes to the car other than now it's in front of the A/C condenser? You don't!

So a bigger, front mounted intercooler is great för the performance! Wrong again, I think what you mean to say is a more efficient (better internal airflow, external airflow, and heat exchanging capabilities) is great for performance. If you just install a bigger intercooler that you know nothing about you most likely are just going to end up lowering the max boost pressure and gaining a huge lag period as the turbo tries to "fill up" the oversized intercooler.
You believe what you believe, and i believe what i believe. ;)
 

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Yes, a larger intercooler WILL increase spool-time or "turbo lag"

If you use a nicely built bar and plate intercooler that has plenty of surface area exposed to incoming air, the fact that the intercooler was or was not engineered for the car is a moot point.

Its a box with inlets and outlets and radiator fins. There's not much more engineering that goes into it than that. Lest we forget how sucky stock side-pods for fmic's are? Very small surface area, very small volume, low efficiancy.

Sure there is pressure drop, once the entire system is pressurized theres not much to worry about anyway. I am by no means an engineer, but I have spent some time tinkering with turbo-cars, and a FMIC can make a pretty huge differance.

Go do a nice pull with your stock intercooler and feel both endtanks, i can gaurantee one-side isn't going to be ice-cold. I can however remember driving the **** out of my WRX and feeling the cold-side end-tank, and it was like ICE, even in the summer. I was quite shocked at how efficiant it really was, the whole throttle-side would be chilled nicely.

This does have staggering performance benefits, especially on ramping up boost even on stock turbochargers. You'll find that theres a limit to thermal efficiancy on small turbochargers when they reach a certain pressure. The stock subie turbos maxed out at about... 16.5-17psi, anything above that, and the air was getting too hot to the point where more boost was retroactive. Add intercooler, problem solved, at least ffor a few more PSI.

I have seen some interesting things among these forums after being here for a short while. Many of you are skeptical of tried-and-true performance upgrades, somehow theorizing that the Saab engine is differant from all other ICE's. Some mythical dragon that only an engineer or trained saab technician can understand.
It's not. It's a beefy 4cylinder block with a precisely sized turbocharger slapped on it, and a very efficiant engine management system.
This doesnt change the laws of physics or the laws of the "horsepower world". A bigger free-flowing exhaust is going to make more power, a colder intake charge is going to make more power, more air = more power.

It's pretty simple. More fuel = more fire. Air is the fuel. denser air = more air, and therefore more power. pack more air molecules into the same space, it's gonna burn hotter.

A dyno test would be nice to see, it's hard to say if the car will truely make more power with this torque-demand bull****, if it doesn't make more power persay, it shou;ld have more power readily available, to say the least. Those dinky IC's heat up fast and cool down slow.


I will say this. Nice car Saabing9-3 :)

Reminds me of my old baby :(
 

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Let's put it like this:
You take a original 9-3SS Aero and dyno.
Then change only the intercooler to a much more effecient then dyno.
You will NOT have any increased power with the new intercooler mounted, but you will be able to dyno the same horsepower pull after pull, but with the original intercooler you will LOOSE pwer after some pulls.
And those who dont believe me, try it out. ;)
 

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PaaNis said:
Let's put it like this:
You take a original 9-3SS Aero and dyno.
Then change only the intercooler to a much more effecient then dyno.
You will NOT have any increased power with the new intercooler mounted, but you will be able to dyno the same horsepower pull after pull, but with the original intercooler you will LOOSE pwer after some pulls.
And those who dont believe me, try it out. ;)

+1

A larger intercooler doesn't make any more ponies. It merely allows you to keep more of what you have. :cool:


The condition PaaNis is describing is commonly known as "heat soak," when the charge air temperature overwhelms the intercooler so that there's no heat exanging occuring with outside air. (Delta T =0)

On a hot day, or after repeated pulls, the increased intake air temps increase the chance of ping and the engine management pulls timing accordingly. The result is less power. A bigger IC that's mounted in a place where it's getting a steady flow of ambient air will be able to drop charge air temps faster and lower than a stock IC.

But...

You'll never get any more power than you would on a very cold day, when the ambient temps are low enough to keep the stock IC cold....

...and even then T8 governs the boost pretty strictly to avoid temp-induced boost overshoots, so you'll feel some stronger/faster boost onset but you're not going to extract a huge amount more...

But with a bigger IC, you'll be able to keep that fresh feeling all day, even on the hottest days.... :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
As for mounting when you take your front bumper off there is pleant of spot to do it, I'll post more pics when I take my bumper back off next week so you can see better. It's a Spearco FMIC I got the 2.4 in aluminum piping from www.935motorsports.com and some of the reducer elbow couplers from www.extremepsi.com if any thing if the performance doesn't change becuase of it we all can agree it does lood really good!:D
 

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lmpreza said:
Yes, a larger intercooler WILL increase spool-time or "turbo lag"

If you use a nicely built bar and plate intercooler that has plenty of surface area exposed to incoming air, the fact that the intercooler was or was not engineered for the car is a moot point.
+1....an IC is an IC...



This does have staggering performance benefits, especially on ramping up boost even on stock turbochargers. You'll find that theres a limit to thermal efficiancy on small turbochargers when they reach a certain pressure. The stock subie turbos maxed out at about... 16.5-17psi, anything above that, and the air was getting too hot to the point where more boost was retroactive. Add intercooler, problem solved, at least ffor a few more PSI.
The turbo isn't maxing out... the charge air passing through the craptacular top-mounted IC is keeping the intake temps high so that you couldn't use the boost the turbo was capable of. You're not getting any more, you're just able to use more of what you have, which I think was PaaNis's point. :)

It's pretty simple. More fuel = more fire. Air is the fuel. denser air = more air, and therefore more power. pack more air molecules into the same space, it's gonna burn hotter.

A dyno test would be nice to see, it's hard to say if the car will truely make more power with this torque-demand bull****, if it doesn't make more power persay, it shou;ld have more power readily available, to say the least. Those dinky IC's heat up fast and cool down slow.
You won't make any more boost than the maximum that car's ECU is mapped for. That's the point of having several devices that equalize performance across various altitudes and temperatures.....


But...

If high intake temps limited you to only 12 psi on a 90 degree day, you might be able to use 14-15 psi with a bigger IC....

Again...you're not making any more...you're just able to use more of what you have.. :)
 

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Mike Saunders scores! ;) That's exactly the way it is.

skr0ldog8, i think you are wrong, not me.

Saabing9-3, how did you "secure" the new IC?
Bolt it where?
It looks really hot! ;)
 

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mike saunders said:
+1....an IC is an IC...





The turbo isn't maxing out... the charge air passing through the craptacular top-mounted IC is keeping the intake temps high so that you couldn't use the boost the turbo was capable of. You're not getting any more, you're just able to use more of what you have, which I think was PaaNis's point. :)



You won't make any more boost than the maximum that car's ECU is mapped for. That's the point of having several devices that equalize performance across various altitudes and temperatures.....


But...

If high intake temps limited you to only 12 psi on a 90 degree day, you might be able to use 14-15 psi with a bigger IC....

Again...you're not making any more...you're just able to use more of what you have.. :)
The turbo isn't maxing out,as far as boost figures are concerned, however, it is maxing out on thermal efficiancy. Compressing air causes heat, which the intercooler is designed to fix. There was a point with the subies where, yes, the air coming out of the turbocharger, was hotter than the intercooler could compensate for, this was right around 16.5-17psi. a bigger intercooler allowed you to run more boost, since it could cool this hotter air better. The point was that when it would get too hot, it was negating the effect of adding more boost.

Though, all this really does is make even more argument for some user-tunable engine control, instead of the craptastic generic reflashes.


heat soak does suck :(
 

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PaaNis said:
Let's put it like this:
You take a original 9-3SS Aero and dyno.
Then change only the intercooler to a much more effecient then dyno.
You will NOT have any increased power with the new intercooler mounted, but you will be able to dyno the same horsepower pull after pull, but with the original intercooler you will LOOSE pwer after some pulls.
And those who dont believe me, try it out. ;)
Not only this, but when I put a larger FMIC on my evo I was able to up the boost a couple more psi without knock which in turn made more power with no ill effects on lag. The combination of the larger IC increased boost, and tuning created 14 whp on an otherwise maxed out setup. If only it was easier to crank up the boost on the 93. I'd be curious to see if changing out the IC on a stage 3 car would pick up a few ponies. Not sure if the engine management reduces timing due to knock detection?
 

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Saabing9-3 said:
As for mounting when you take your front bumper off there is pleant of spot to do it, I'll post more pics when I take my bumper back off next week so you can see better. It's a Spearco FMIC I got the 2.4 in aluminum piping from www.935motorsports.com and some of the reducer elbow couplers from www.extremepsi.com if any thing if the performance doesn't change becuase of it we all can agree it does lood really good!:D
Could you elaborate a little bit more on the piping you used? I do not see any generic IC pipe kits on their webiste. Thanks in advance.
 
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