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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
1989 900T16 manual vert

a lot of water has fallen out of the sky over last 24 hours, and we went through a few deepish puddles together yesterday befre the 'trouble', so I'm keeping this in mind.

Whilst braving the M6 yesterday, the car began to hesitate at all speeds; sporadic and sometimes for a second, sometimes 30 seconds. When it lasted more than this, I called the AA.

2 hours later, he turns up. She starts (always starts 'on the button'), sounds rough as all owt, misfiring he said, and then she settles down and purrs like a fat pussy cat! He thought electrics; I'd thought fuel delivery when I was driving.

Checked the fuel pump for noise - none except what you'd expect.

Checked all hoses/vac lines - all looked OK.

CEL did not illuminate as linked to EZK on this variant.

I drive home (20 faultless miles). Left her overnight.

Took her out this morning, after a lot more rain, and yep, she starts up fine, drive for 10 miles (hence warm'ish) and then begins with a little hesitation here, and a little there. The car will die at junctions unless I keep up the revs. Sometimes, however, she is fine.... holds the revs at 900/1000.

NB This car has always had an idiosynchratic idle; by this I mean it always hold it's idle at whatever it feels like at the time, but it will vary from 850 -1100. SO at 1 junction its a solid 900, at another its 850.

I replaced the AIC last year and this sorted idle variability whilst idling at junctions, after it developed a tendancy to die (which has come back but now linked to hesitation at all speeds).

I'm thinking a change of plugs (due), rotor (due) and dizzy cap... and NCT sensor (can be very low revs at start up when cold so this needed too be done anyway).

She does leak when there is a very heavy downpour and water ends up behind the front seats.... could be linked to previous iidle dieing/variability now I come to think of it.... it was April and also very wet....

Any ideas folks?

Thanks
Ez
 

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I would start by checking the dizzy, cap, leads and coil etc for condensation or moisture. Water behind rear seats? If you have a sliding roof check the drain holes and hoses for blockage, both sides, front and rear. If you get water in the front, RHS footwell, that's the ventilation intake drain blocked.
 

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Re

You might want to check the SP. plug wires,spray a water mist over them in the dark and look for sparks jumping to tell if there finished. GOOD-LUCK DAVE S>
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
thanks fellas.... will do as suggested; visual inspection suggests no water anywhere near the coil etc.

Popped the dizzy CAP, very small amount of grimey stuff (oil/water?) on/around the bottom 'pin' that sits above the turb heat shield.

Regarding the EZK

Yes, easily confused as have 3 Saabs 1989, 1991 & 1992 and I do get mixed up...

<runs to check avec Bentley in hand>

I have a 2 pin AIC therefore I have the LH 2.4 (with a throttle dashpot).

There's no OBD socket under rear seat or in the engine bay so thought I must have 2.2 - apologies.

Will get back when all checks done.

Thanks everyone,
Ez
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok, have visually inspected the coil - OK; CAP was ok apart from as described above, cleaned the rotor which looked OK to my novice eyes.

Pulled the plugs, all have carbon deposits (thin layer of black sooty dry stuff). Rich running according to some pics I've just looked at.

Had a spare set of plugs and put them in. Will change the Air filter as can't find when this was last done (not in my tenure of 2 years and 6K but likely 20K ago as full service by PO).

Took her for a run, sounds different (not as tinny?) but all good so far....

What else can I do to eliminate the rich running?

Thanks
Ez
 

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Try changing the Temp sensor in the middle of the inlet manifold. could also replace replace the thermostat for short run mpg.

Various places for leaks on a vert!! includind rear glass seal, sealing tape along the bottom of the sides under the rear side windows. You will have to take the lower cushion of the rear seat out to check this. Sometimes the folds in the sides of the roof and not position correctly causing water to run down the into the rear side panels, blocked sill drains.

If there's water into the roof bag (where the roof folds into) then check the rear window seal.

Check the gap between the upper lining in the boot and the roof bag. water in there could be due to leaking screws in the rear roof strip.

If water in the boot check the rear light seals as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for all the leak tips - no blockages as quite conscientious regarding keeping the 'drains' clear having learned the hard way. The roof 'bay' does fill up but goes nowhere that I can see; water appears to trickle from the rear quarter of the roof at the back as if it's coming from 'under the fold' where the glass section meets the main roof (rather than through the glass section). The air intake was clear so the damp drivers & passengers wells are a bit of a mystery (and behind the drivers & passengers seats too).

The car started up fine this morning, but wouldn't hold a respectable idle until warm so a NCT sensor is ordered.

Running rich - starter fr 10?

Ez
 

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water appears to trickle from the rear quarter of the roof at the back as if it's coming from 'under the fold' where the glass section meets the main roof (rather than through the glass section).
Do the rear trim screws go right through into the boot area? The screw holes should not be drilled right the way through and short screws should be fitted. You have to drop the rigid roof cover in the top of the boot to check. If they do, this is a likely leakage area unless holes are sealed on the inside.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm still waiting fr the NCT sensor but did a little test.

This morning I started the car and did not touch the accelerator.

She started at 1000, climbed after 1 minute to 1100.

After 1 minute she dropped to 1000, another 30 secs to 900; she's happily sitting at 870 - 890, and constant.

I think this tells me something but nt sure what; if, as usual, I'd engaged the accelerator, whilst cold, she would want to fall to 850 or below and eventually stall unless I kelpt the revs up through driving (that is until she is warm).

Any thoughts oh wise ones :D?

Is this still likely to be the NCT?
Ez
 

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My initial thoughts are it's not the NCT. You can do some tests yourself if you have a DVM (digital voltmeter) or similar. You can check the resistance of the NCT a various temps. Cold it should be around 2.5K ohms, hot around 350 ohms. If you unplug the NCT the ECU should default to somewhere in the middle. So if you unplug the NCT the engine should idle at around the correct rpm.

PS I am a little unsure of the spec of your car Ez and unclear as to which system you have Bosch or Lucas. However if you haven't done so it might be worth checking the TPS. As you will know the ECU has to see a closed throttle before it starts controlling the idle. Something may be marginal in this area. You will have read this link, but it's probably worth another read. http://www.saabcentral.com/techhelp/c900/idling_problems.php
 

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Thanks for all the leak tips - no blockages as quite conscientious regarding keeping the 'drains' clear having learned the hard way. The roof 'bay' does fill up but goes nowhere that I can see; water appears to trickle from the rear quarter of the roof at the back as if it's coming from 'under the fold' where the glass section meets the main roof (rather than through the glass section). The air intake was clear so the damp drivers & passengers wells are a bit of a mystery (and behind the drivers & passengers seats too).


Ez

Once the water is in the roof bag/tub it will tend to drain forwards along the folds in the roof bag along the sides and behing the rear side windows, especially when braking. If the folds are not positioned correctly it can trickle down the side panels and into the space under the rear seat. Or if the tape seal at the bottom ot the sides is damaged it can get into the floor that way.

I would suspect the AIC has gone duff/ dirty again or a wiring problem to the AIC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Most issues resolved, 1 remains..

The new plugs have made a heck of a difference ;oops: . I changed them last Friday and 160 miles of trouble free motoring ensued, no variable idle, no dieing, absolutely as it all should be.

Today, I travelled 120 miles (after a new air filter); the car was absolutley fine except very early on I noticed the CEL light flicking on when I accelerated hard. After a few minutes this disappeared and I couldn't make it repeat this despite putting my foot down very hard. I should add that this happened when I put a new air filter in and forgot to reconnect the AMM (ahem, the car let me know immediately) so I'm thinking the CEL may have been because of this (taking a wee while to 'adapt' after being unplugged).

When I returned home at the end of the day, I parked up. 20 minutes later I needed to move the car and she did as she has done before. As soon as I engage gears and press the accelerator, her revs drop to 500 (she's not cold nor warm at this point). Keeping the revs up is no problem, and I moved her where she needed to go.

I've reread the link from Peva, and I'm thinking the TPS needs a clean. However, I'm keen to read the OBD but can't find the connector...

I am a little unsure of the spec of your car Ez and unclear as to which system you have Bosch or Lucas
1989 T16 convertible. Longer chain (100 mph @3500 revs). I have Bosch amplifier, NCT, AMM, a throttle dashpot. L2.4 I'm thinking but where's the connector - not in the wing, ahead of the shifter, or under the rear seat. I'd like to pull the codes... I feel apprehensive about the TPS... not sure why except it seems quite a technical thing to get right...

The dashpot, when I'm motoring, and stopping, does exactly as it says on the tin, so I think this is OK. Just something to do with the throttle. It's not a massive inconvenience but I'd like it to be right.

Anyone else with a 1989?

Thanks for all your help,
Ez
 

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CEL indication is usually for AMM, and O2(Lambda) sensor, as this might be old too and not working 100%, hence the flicker
Paul will probably know the Ohm numbers/settings for the O2 (lambda) sensor 3 wire connection just inside inner wing near air intake
 

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CEL indication is usually for AMM, and O2(Lambda) sensor, as this might be old too and not working 100%, hence the flicker
Paul will probably know the Ohm numbers/settings for the O2 (lambda) sensor 3 wire connection just inside inner wing near air intake
It's pointless guessing the reason for the CEL. Pull the fault codes,
http://www.swedishwrench.com/flashcode.htm That's what they're for.
In the convertible the codes are accessed via the connector in the RHS bulkhead under the rear seat. This is all shown and explained in the link above. The codes will also tell you if you have a faulty TPS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
1989 T16 convertible with a throttle dashpot (and two point AIC). NoABS, or lamda. All the ignition and injection parts read 'Bosch' - I thought LH2.4?

It's pointless guessing the reason for the CEL. Pull the fault codes
:evil:;oops::evil:

OK, I agree but can someone tell me where my OBD socket is? It's not under the rear seat, or at the left wing, or ahead of the gear lever (shifter)???

I have no idle issue when stopping, such as at junctions, or dieing issue, since the plug change ;ol;.

Now, what I do have is annoying 'jerkiness' at very low or no revs, not to much but not right. I am guessing from reading stuff here, its the TPS not recognising throttle closed but I would like to know what the CEL is storing by way of faults.


Thanks
Ez
 

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There may be a two wire connector by the fuse box. The switch required would not ground, but merely ground the circuit. Normally this connector is uncapped.
 
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