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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 2.0 1990 carlsson has a lot of noise from the timing chain end of the engine which I have suspected could be a sticking lifter though even when the lifter noise settles (once oil flow reaches all of them) there's still a fair amount of noise at the end where the timing chain is.

So far I haven't done any exploring, however I was wondering if there are any good ways to deduce what might be going on with a B202 timing chain? I don't have a stethescope unfortunately otherwise I'd have a good listen with that.

The most likely possibility I can think of would be a worn (stretched) chain and perhaps a worn chain guide. The tensioner may also be a player.

At present I don't have a new chain, tensioner or chain guide in my box of 9k spares. I have read a few guides on in-car renewal of timing chains but I'm not sure if the chain guide can be replaced in-car.

What method(s) are the best for studying suspected worn or tired timing chains? Is there anything specific to the B202 engine when used in a 9000 (as distinct from the same engine in a C900) that I would need to keep in mind?

Thanks, Craig.
 

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Simple answer - Yes

Some (on here) say take the engine out.

But, the PO of my griffin already had the chains (timing/balance) off. (no balance for you-I think), head off, sump off. I bought it like that.

And I put it back together on my sons garage with only my basic toolbox and the car jacks.

There are guides on web, I think in Saab9000 site. I have them printed off.
Haynes is a help too.

But, RF wheel off, bottom engine mount undone, top mount off, after taking off a/c etc, jack up engine, ( I forget what for now! - was over a year ago) Sump off (so you can get timing cover off)

Oops, you might need to loosen the crank pulley bolt before you do very much, unless you have an air gun.

Tricky job is getting the timing cover back on without the head being taken off.

When I put mine back together I made big mistake, put head on first!!;oops:

New headgasket was compressed downwards and got damaged. Now I have an oil leak there.

When I get my SRS light fixed and boost fixed that is the next job, to take the timing cover off again and fix the oil leak.
:lol:

/R

Oh and you can check the timing chain tensioner, procedure in Haynes and on here, to see if the chain is past the recommended limit of stretch.
 

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Don't need a stethoscope. Any solid rod will do such as a broomstick handle, a long screwdriver, a metal rod.

The ticking noise will be lifters or the fuel pressure regulator. The timing chain will make a noticeable clank or rattle.

Given the difficulty in diagnosing a timing chain problem as well as its relative rarity I'd ask an experienced SAAB mechanic for his opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Given the way the rattle is only at one end and does gradually reduce over time, I'm fairly sure it is timing chain related, but after breakfast I am going to take out the chain tensioner and confirm if the chain is stretched.

I was looking last night at various parts suppliers and saw that PFS stocks timing chain kits which include the chain, new guides, etc. however the kits include an endless chain rather than a masterlink chain.

Seeing as I still need to replace the existing crank pulley with a new one before I get the A/C system repaired, I'm thinking that I might do a full renewal of the timing chain, pulley, guides and perhaps also the the gear wheels for the chain on the crankshaft and camshafts too, depending on how worn they appear to be.

On the 9k that shouldn't require engine removal since everthing should I think be accessible from the right side with wheel arch liners out and the cylinder head cover + timing cover off the engine.

All will be revealed when I take out the tensioner shortly...

Craig.
 

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I was looking last night at various parts suppliers and saw that PFS stocks timing chain kits which include the chain, new guides, etc. however the kits include an endless chain rather than a masterlink chain.

On the 9k that shouldn't require engine removal since everthing should I think be accessible from the right side with wheel arch liners out and the cylinder head cover + timing cover off the engine.

All will be revealed when I take out the tensioner shortly...

Craig.
Right - see my post above but you do not need to take the head off.
But it is tricky - see my mistake above too.

I think it is hardly worth doing the job unless you replace the guides, and I got my parts from PFS - great service I thought.

/R
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Stymied by not having the right tools (need a 3" 1/2" drive extension bar and a long M24 socket) to remove the tensioner, so when I get them I'll extract it (it's the later type) and see how much it's extended.

Craig.
 

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Ideally it seems to me one should replace timing chain and guides and tensioner with the head off. Refitting the timing cover with head on is asking for gasket damage. I had a new chain rolled in from the top for around $400 by a mechanic (needs special tool). Left the worn guides in situ. After that I dropped the sump myself and deleted the balance chain (no balance chain on your b202). All has worked very nicely and running smooth as silk some 18,000 kms later (just back from a two week 2500 km tour of Tassie - great driving and super state for blasting around with a Saab). With your car being much older than mine and presumably more worn, it may be better to do it properly with timing cover off and replace the guides and even cogs while you're at it. Maybe you can get away without touching the head, but watch that gasket!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Righto little update. I have found that undoing and swinging up the torque arm gives better access to the tensioner. To swing it up I remove the bolt holding the arm to the fixed mount on the engine, undo the back bolt holding the rear bracket for the arm to the car body, and remove the two front bolts for the bracket, then with the oil filler cap undone the arm swings up out of the way.

I also found that I don't have a socket the right size to take out the main tensioner body. I tried a 24 mm socket and it's not big enough so does anyone know the correct size?

Removing the cap covering the spring and small plastic plunger is no trouble. I have some new timing chain tensioner washers.

Craig.
 

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Tensioner size

It's a 27; long reach is not required if you remove the 12mm centre with spring and plunger. I use a large piece of 1 inch thick foam to squash in between engine and false bulkhead in case any small bits go walkabout. You can get an almost straight socket if the bolts of the alternator are loosened and the alternator is swung towards the false bulkhead. ( This assumes you have already removed the auxiliary belt ). Watch out for the brake pipe !
bc109
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It's a 27; long reach is not required if you remove the 12mm centre with spring and plunger. I use a large piece of 1 inch thick foam to squash in between engine and false bulkhead in case any small bits go walkabout. You can get an almost straight socket if the bolts of the alternator are loosened and the alternator is swung towards the false bulkhead. ( This assumes you have already removed the auxiliary belt ). Watch out for the brake pipe !
bc109
Excellent thankyou for the tips. I got the 12 mm plug, spring and plunger out without any problem yesterday, so when I get the socket I need (27 mm - thanks for that) I'll get the tensioner out and decide what to do based on what it reveals.

I didn't think to do anything with the alternator (I was accessing the tensioner from the top hence why I moved the upper torque arm out of the way).

Craig.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Finally have 27 mm socket and have removed the timing chain tensioner now that the engine has cooled enough since getting home from work.

The extension measurement is about 10.3 mm and given that the allowed maximum is 11 mm, I think that's good enough to qualify for replacing the timing chain (and associated parts - via the PFS kit or similar) or at least the tensioner itself to see if it confirms the current setting of the present tensioner.

I will be doing this in-car as I am also going to combine it with an oil system flush/replacement (plus new filter) and renewal of the oil seal behind the crank pulley + the pulley itself (middle rubber bit has lots of cracks appearing since A/C comp failed last year).

I'm aware that once the timing cover comes off, the integrity of the section of head gasket that compresses over the top edge of the timing cover may be affected so what would be best way to manage this?

For now I'll put the tensioner back in since I need the car until replacement parts (I'm replacing the shift rod coupler too as per my thread about that - see the recent pics I posted).

Craig.
 

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I'm aware that once the timing cover comes off, the integrity of the section of head gasket that compresses over the top edge of the timing cover may be affected so what would be best way to manage this?

Craig.
Best way to manage this?

With lots of care I think, tricky to get the timing cover back on without causing an issue, but according to some on here it can be done.

I will watch with interest as I will be attempting this job in early November.

/R
 

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I'm aware that once the timing cover comes off, the integrity of the section of head gasket that compresses over the top edge of the timing cover may be affected so what would be best way to manage this?
LocTite 518

It's the only circumstance in which Gasket Sealer of any kind should be used on any part of a Head Gasket.
 

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You use the loctite with the gasket to form a better seal. Also, use the same loctite, or "anerobic sealer" on the timing cover. It works better than the timing gaskets if they offer them. In my experience, the head needs to come off to replace the timing chain. You can "roll in a new one" but you guides are already worn so that's kind of pointless...

Tom
 

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I was referring to the joint at the Head, but all later model 9000s use 518 instead of the old Timing cover Gaskets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I was referring to the joint at the Head, but all later model 9000s use 518 instead of the old Timing cover Gaskets.
Ah that's good to know. As I've pretty much confirmed that the noise is timing chain related now I'll be going ahead with the repair once I get the PFS kit. Will also do other stuff at the same time like oil flush (+ filter), and I may see if I can find a new oil pump set in case that's worn too.

Craig.
 

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I will be interested in your oil pump

I think/hope you will find it is still close to perfect.

I have had 2 apart and both looked good with very few wear marks.

/R
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Will re-visit this during the first part of next year. The car came interstate and then was not driven much for 3 yrs until I relocated it about 2 wks ago. Still has the very noticable timing chain rattle as it never got attended to.

Don't have the chain kit up here though as it's all in the back of the black 2.1 C900 hatchback that's still down south and not running.

Craig.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Move forward 2.5 years and (as alluded to in other threads) looking at this again since the prospect of needing the car working right to move interstate for new job has come up.

The Haynes manual describes a process for working on the timing chain job with the engine in-car. That's my preference. Last time I had the right-side wheel arch panels out doing stuff on that side (re-connecting the disconnected fuel tank breather line back to the charcoal cannister) I was looking at all the stuff that needs to be moved or removed.

Never done a timing chain job but given that the access is quite good compared to in a 900 it might be a good one to overcome my anxiety and just do it!

Craig.
 
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