SaabCentral Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have a 9-5 3.0. it runs great but I'm a bit dissapointed in the performance. My wife's lexus es 300 has the same displacement, same amount of valves and is naturally aspirated yet it puts out a healthy 220 bhp. I just blew my second oil seal so now I am driving around with no turbo. thats right. for about $4 and a trip to the hardware store you can limp your saab turbo around indefinitely with no negative consequences if your turbo starts blowing smoke. Thats for another thread.

I am considering buying a larger turbo, cutting a manifold and welding a flange to bold the larger turbo with wastegate to it where the old one goes. before you nay-sayers get spooled up, i actually did this before on a 1984 saab 900 with the sohc engine with good results.
I figure if i can double my boost to 6-7psi i will be able to get up to the mid to high 200s in the hp range. now if i can only get the computer to allow spark all the way to 6000 rpm instead of dumping raw fuel out the exhaust @ 5300 that would be great. I'm going to buy a front side manifold and start chopping and welding soon. I'll post pics as soon as work starts. Wish me good luck and anyone with experience can feel free to give advice
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Hi, driving the same car. Stock is 200 BHP; I was able to get it tuned to 245 HP and 388Nm. That improved the ride quite a bit. But the car is heavy to begin with (I believe 1.7 tonne) and it could use about 300 HP and more torque, IMHO.
I am told the only way to get it up there is to custom build a manifold and insert 1 or 2 high pressure turbos. Not sure If I want to go through the trouble of finding a shop which could do that for me, not to mention the new tuning.
The car stock comes with an asymmetric low pressure turbo which uses only front 3 cylinders I believe so installing new high pressure turbo is a interesting move. But the V6, 3.0 liters engine should be able to give quite a bit more power than stock or even the 245 I currently have IMO....
Let me know how you do with the manifold, etc. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'm familiar with the system even though i still cant see the justification behind an asymetrical turbo system. for simplicity sake i will not be adding another turbo. that would mean more oil lines and coolant lines. instead i will simply put a larger turbo where the current 1 sits. the computer is well able to come with the 6-8 lbs of boost i have planned. normally aspirated engines can accept 5 lbs with decent results. i know. ive done it 3 times already and never blew an engine because i didn't have dreams of strapping a turbo to a car with 11:1 compression and boosting it to 12 lbs. the saab v6 is 10:1 compression stock so 8 lbs boost will be no problem on premium gas.

My theory is that the miniscule turbo on there stock runs out of steam @ 200 hp so if i was to replace it with a waste gated t25 capable of 350 bhp that should liven things up a bit. the original turbo had no waste gate because at full capacity it didnt even push enough ait to be a danger to a 3 liter engine. if it was on a 1.5l engine like it was designed for, things may be a bit different but even so 200 hp from 1.5l is not unreasonable. Right now i am running no turbo and regular gas. took the computer about 2 days of randomly shutting the car down to get used to the new parameters and now except for an obvious lack of power,( I can have my *** handed to me by a minivan full or screaming kids), it runs fine and still delivers 28mpg on the highway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
(snip) ....and now except for an obvious lack of power,( I can have my *** handed to me by a minivan full or screaming kids), it runs fine and still delivers 28mpg on the highway.
Funny :D

I heard that the asymmetrical feature (got to look at it that way... lol) was SAAB's response to being forced by GM to use the same engine block as the Omega Opel. They wanted to come up with something "SAAB" and besides the Trionic, etc.; put in this LPT to provide more torque at low RPM's.

Don't know if this is true not.

Personally, I hate 4 cylinders, even with turbo.

I love this car, even if it has an unconventional engine/LPT. It is very smooth. And there are ways to boost the power.

here another link I found in this forum (but I imagine you've already seen it):

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-199270.html

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on this B308E engine but it CAN be tuned via ECU to quite a decent 245 or 250 HP without touching the hardware.


In any event, I think I will keep this car which is Automatic and later one buy an Areo V6 Turbo manual transmission so I can have fun with it and get tuned to over 300 HP, etc.

Keep me posted on how you do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
(snip)....except for an obvious lack of power,( I can have my *** handed to me by a minivan full or screaming kids)....
Funny :D

I heard that the LPT was SAAB's response to being forced by GM to use the engine block of the Opel Omega. So in addition to the Trionic, etc.; they came up with the LPT to add more torque at low RPM's.
(Don't know if this is true nor not.)

In any event , I love this car. The V6 3 liter engine is smooth. And capable of a lot more than stock. (I do hate 4 cylinder engines even with turbo--but it seems those are the most tunable SAAB engines, although Vtuners offers a stage 2 @ 390 HP for a V6 Aero. Also, I don't actually see why a 4 cylinders such as the B235 would be more "tunable" than a V6 with high pressure turbos and wastegate using Trionic 7 or even 8....but I digress.)

The B308E is often misunderstood and it can be tuned higher. At around 245 HP (flywheel--I should get my own dyno read on that), it is a lot nicer than stock. The car being so heavy to begin with, could use even more HP and Torque so another 50 or so to reach 300 would be nice.

I will keep this car for "normal" use (it's fully loaded, Automatic, etc.) but will go for a 2004 or more recent used Areo Turbo with manual transmission (whenever I can) so I can get it tuned to over 300 HP and have fun with it.

Let me know how you do with replacing the existing LPT with a high pressure turbo with wastegate; I'm interested in that mod.

PS I found this thread which you may have already seen:

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-199270.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
448 Posts
more v6 people! welcome to saabcentral. so, the v6 is capable of more than 200hp. Heres the downfall. in tuning, there is no modification to ur max boost pressure. the max boost is ~.5 bar. now stock you will see about .3, that is because your computer is altering airflow to equalize the a/f ratio. there is no boost map in the ecu. it runs off of base boost. with the right hardware, these cars can be much faster and torquier but the possibilities of high boost aren't there with the standard trionic 7 management. now. to address your big turbo theory: great idea. wanted to do it myself, but found that those 3 cylinders will have trouble even generating stage .5 bar on anything larger than 60 trim. so without somehow gathering pressure from the other 3 cyls we just can't get that power.

i think our saabs would benefit from flow (intake, IC and exhaust) throttle modification, head work and fuel. the stage 3 tune I am running from JZW is phenomenal but lacks the acceleration on the go because of the auto box. I found an obd2 interface paddle system that should remedy the problem. I am running a sport cat and 3" pipe back, going to fab a 3" down pipe setup soon.

The port and polish hopefully wil happen in the spring.

Im looking to dyno soon, Ill keep you posted.
Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Hey Matt, yep, us V6 people have to stick together..... lol

How much do you think the sport exhaust is helping?

I was thinking of getting a Ferrita sports exhaust system (I found the exact model needed) but don't really know how much I can expect in terms of performance boost (if any) from it and how much noise.....

I mean the car is an automatic sedan and I make 'normal' use of it, it's not quite a sports car.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
425 Posts
I figured I would chime in. Matt what do you mean by obd2 interface paddle system? As far as the exhaust goes stef a full exhaust would help spool the turbo faster and on the not turbo side it would allow the exhaust to flow faster. Are cars arent really sports car but with a bit of help they can be good performance sedans :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
448 Posts
the exhaust is awesome. faster spool. so instant spool since our little stock turbos spool so fast. It is quite loud but i am currently only using a arc cat and straight through muffler off ebay. i am going to use a vibrant 3" dual outlet setup and if thats too loud then an additional shoenfield race muffler.

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/shifters/paddle-shifter-without-display.html

and I've talked with their tech team, the shifter will function properly just needs a 5 or 6 bolt steering wheel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
OK. I might just order the Ferrita exhaust (if I remember correctly it's a catback), install it and see how loud it is. If clients I take to lunch start to look at me weird if the car roars too loudly, I can always go back to original and sell Ferrita on Ebay I guess. That'll have to wait a bit as I want to get new rotors and pads first....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
t15-t25 hybrid.

I think i may have to re-rout the exhaust from the rear bank to the front. there is enough room between the throttle body and the transmission to run a 2" pipe around to the front like the gm 3.1 engines. it would all have to be custom made.

After some serious pondering i think my first attempt will be a hybrid. its the cheapest way to see if the bottleneck in the system is the gas flow of the 3 front cylinders. What I propose is a garrett 25 housing and compressor wheel attached to the turbo thats already there. that will mean minimal modification and the t25 is capable of flowing enough air to make 350hp easily. It is essentially a down-graded version of the t3-t4 hybrid. If this works, i should get 6-8 lbs all the way to redline with just a bit of lag in the beginning. Any advise on problems that may come from this will be taken into consideration.

By the way, any engine management system that utilizes an air mass flow sensor and an 02 sensor can compensate for boost. all it does is extrapolate based on air intake and then compensate for 02 readings. Its a very simple algorithm that most management systems can run so fast that they can detect individual cylinder misfire. The computer doesn't actually do anything about the boost. I simply dumps fuel based on the amount of air ingested and then trims out the mixture if it is too rich. the spark is advanced based on engine load and then retarded if there is knock detected.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
708 Posts
I think i may have to re-rout the exhaust from the rear bank to the front. there is enough room between the throttle body and the transmission to run a 2" pipe around to the front like the gm 3.1 engines. it would all have to be custom made.

After some serious pondering i think my first attempt will be a hybrid. its the cheapest way to see if the bottleneck in the system is the gas flow of the 3 front cylinders. What I propose is a garrett 25 housing and compressor wheel attached to the turbo thats already there. that will mean minimal modification and the t25 is capable of flowing enough air to make 350hp easily. It is essentially a down-graded version of the t3-t4 hybrid. If this works, i should get 6-8 lbs all the way to redline with just a bit of lag in the beginning. Any advise on problems that may come from this will be taken into consideration.

By the way, any engine management system that utilizes an air mass flow sensor and an 02 sensor can compensate for boost. all it does is extrapolate based on air intake and then compensate for 02 readings. Its a very simple algorithm that most management systems can run so fast that they can detect individual cylinder misfire. The computer doesn't actually do anything about the boost. I simply dumps fuel based on the amount of air ingested and then trims out the mixture if it is too rich. the spark is advanced based on engine load and then retarded if there is knock detected.

I am all for you trying this ;ol; Please keep us updated!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
The way the system works is that the exhaust from 1 side is used to drive the turbo but the turbo sends compressed air to the intake and subsequently the whole engine. All 6 cylinders get the benefit of forced induction but only 1 bank of cylinders, (the front) suffer the back pressure associated with driving a turbine so its a but more effective than routing both exhaust manifolds to the turbo since that much exhaust gas wasn't needed for this particular application.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
In a previous post early on in this thread, I mentioned building a custom manifold and inserting 1 or 2 "high pressure" turbos.

I believe that should be "low pressure turbos" (no wastegate), similar to the OEM one we already have on the B308E.

OR fit in a bigger turbo instead of the small OEM one.

I must have misunderstood the tuning shop--my point being: how to control boost pressure on our car if adding high pressure turbos when the T7 software we have for this 9-5 model is not designed to control wastegates, etc.?

So I believe that the turbos that would be added in such a setup would be "passive" no wastegate low pressure turbos, the idea being to boost overall pressure using more than one LPT; OR use a larger LPT.

Correct, incorrect?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
708 Posts
With 2 lpt's, will any software need to be modified? Hoping it would just be hardware additions/mods.

Question....

Stef, you're hitting 245 hp without hardware mods? Any chance you could explain this? Help us other V6 owners get to 245? Any negative effects on the motor from running higher numbers?

45 more horse than stock without hardware mods would help a lot of us out! ;ol;
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
544 Posts
I don't mean to jump the major subject... But those paddle shifters are literally exactly what I want. Will that actually work on the 9-5 v6? And if you're doing that soon I definitely want to know about the results.


Sent from my Autoguide iPad app
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Sparky's 9-5 3t: No hardware mods yet, besides going from 215/55R16 to 225/50R16 which helped handling.

Let me 1st qualify the claim with the usual disclaimers, etc.: I have not put the car onto a dyno after the upgrade.

I do trust the tuner whom has an excellent track record on soft tuning, using the proper equipment like a Rotronics Rotronics Autoscan 4X chassis Dyno and is an engineer.

I should put the car on a dyno but haven't done so yet. 45 HP (at the flywheel, not on the front wheels) is only a 20% increase so nothing out of the ordinary for a soft tuning, I should think.

BSR offered only a 20 HP boost (220 HP/340 Nm), and Maptun both a 225 HP/350 Nm and a 230 HP/355 Nm (the difference being 225 HP is software only and 230 HP is software + exhaust, etc.)

There are NO negative effects to the engine (remember it is a V6 3 Liter) which is capable of quite a bit more, in my opinion.

Of course, your car has to be sound to begin with. Mine had the heads (+ intake valves) redone about 1 month before the tuning and was running great so I knew engine was good to go.

I think that breaking away from the usual shops may interesting a times--but it all depends on who you go to, their expertise level and whether they have done the actual work on the bench themselves, etc.

There are guys like that in the US for sure.

If you (and others) are really interested, I could ask the tuner if he would be willing to work on a distance basis.

You'd have to FEDEX him your ECU: 2 days from the US international shipping + 2 days back + let's give him 1 day to do his work (he would backup your original file and copy it to a CD which you could use to restore to original map if you were so inclined; and install his own map file on your chip) so that would mean 5 days downtime. That may be a lot...?

Also, you'd have to feel comfortable with taking off your ECU and putting in back in.

There are some tuning shops like Nordic Tuning, Abbott Racing or other (can't remember which) that work this way, I believe.

Another way to go perhaps is to use the T7 Suite http://trionic.mobixs.eu/ along with the tuner's map file. But that would mean he would be willing to "sell" "licence" the file (I have no idea if he would); that you would know how to connect your laptop to your ECU and finally, that you would be familiar with the T7 Suite.

(I've downloaded it but am not familiar with it and would not want to risk bricking my ECU personally, but I am not the best DIY guy out there) ;)

Anyway, let me know if you (and any others) are interested and if so, I can ask the tuner what he thinks about it.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top