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What would be the best thing to do to achieve 40-50hp increase out of a 16v 900s? and still keep in NA
 

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Best or easiest?
Best would be the complete rundown with new cams, higher compression, better ignition, different exhaust and a fuel-chip, and you still might not be anywhere near 40-50 hp.
Easiest? NOS, and hope it can take it...
Daniel
 

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I ask the same questions all the time because I have an N/A too. But I think that theirs not enough people tuning N/As to really know how you get out of cams, exhaust, and ecu changes. Nobody seems to know what kind of gains you can get from those mods (without actually doing it). Unlike the turbos where they know when they do certain APC mods they get a real difference.
 

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93SAABJADE said:
I ask the same questions all the time because I have an N/A too. But I think that theirs not enough people tuning N/As to really know how you get out of cams, exhaust, and ecu changes. Nobody seems to know what kind of gains you can get from those mods (without actually doing it). Unlike the turbos where they know when they do certain APC mods they get a real difference.
And there's not going to be anymore knowledge of these things if someone doesn't just do it instead of asking these questions over and over again in forums. Cam and exhaust mods are something that can be made by professionals, just get a camshaft and take it to some maching shop and tell them what you want (for example more power to high revs) and they do it. Same goes with exhausts. Fuel delivery can be arranged nowdays even with a limited budget with Megasquirt.

Turbocharging just happens to be the easiest way to get power out of a Saab, that is why the N/A's are not so popular among tuners. Early Saab 99 rallye cars had +200 hp naturally aspirated, the engine was b-engine, but I believe same kind of results can be taken of a b202 or b201 h-engine as well.
 

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easiest way would be a small shot of Nitous. Right way would be to find a wrecked 2.0t and drop the motor in. or you can just buy mine, lol:cheesy:
 

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I plan on "modding" my N/A, but I cant afford to dyno everytime I change something, but will dyno at the end if it's still in one piece. I think that the best "mod" to begin with is lightweight. if you want this car to go fast...strip it...you do however loose all the interior beauty and creature comforts
 

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I dont see why some good ecu mods like adding fuel to mid and upper range, with a cam and good 2.5 exhaust, best if no cat, and maybe some ignition mods wouldn't give an N/A noticeable power. The horsepower is placed all up top use that to your advantage. Hey it may be a dog of the line but when it gets up there there will be a difference.
 

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The best way to look at upgrading for more power is the same for N/A or Turbo charged/blown cars.

Figure out use: street, daily driver, racer, rally, just for fun, combo car.

Figure out the HP or Money you have to spend and then go from there. The best way is the have a plan and make the HP gains as a package rather than piece meal.

In other words. If you want another 25HP out of the N/A engine. Look at the parts needed and then figure pricing. See if this in within the budget.

If all you will every want is 25more HP than start buying the parts (cam, exhaust header= about 10-25hp depending) but realize if you want more HP down the road than you will more than likely have to upgrade the cam, since the Header should all ready be free flowing and offering the best it can.

So, in terms of power and drivability. I had a V4 motor I wanted to build, had a budget of 3000.00. Talked with Jack as MSS and came up with a plan of CAM, lifters, pistons 1700CC Vs 1500CC, balanced rotating assembly, flywheel lightened, P&P, and tuned single port Y exhaust, high volume/pressure oil pump, new intake manifold and carb. (then the regular replacement parts, new racing clutch, water pump, electric fan vs manual, throw out bearing, etc)

This complete package would but the car around 115HP-125HP from the stock 68HP.

The budget went over by 200.00, but the car was incredible to drive. I opted for the single barrel carb due to cost restraints. but with a 2 barrel could have been even better. The car would burn rubber 1st-3rd and would redline at 8500rpms though the power falled off around 6700rpms. but doing peel outs the car once over 3500rpms was just an absolute screamer.

But the idea again was to make sure the components worked with each other vs against each other and the budget allowed for this to happen.

If you don't have a budget because of money restraints, Then figure out HP goal and be sure and fit/buy components that will work together as the project grows (as you add more parts) This will save you tons of fustration as well as money.

An aftermarket fuel/spark management system really seems to be one of the best HP gains for the money and is fully upgradable as the engine HP grows.
 

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Saab engines aren't "special" - the same basics that build horsepower apply to most NA engines.

You'll want to improve breathing - so things like a good set of headers, low restriction exhaust, low restriction cat, nice fresh O2 sensor, port matching the exhaust ports to the headers to help scavange the cylinders while on the exhaust stroke all help - on the intake side of things again, removing restrictions, unshrouding the valves, doing some port machining to improve flow - it's all good. Combine it with a set of well engineered cams and increase the fuel flow as needed (bigger injectors, perhaps a higher pressure fuel regulator if needed) - you can monitor exhaust temperature and your plugs to see if you're running lean or rich and adjust accordingly.

Now, the above will increase your horsepower BUT they'll also push your power band higher up the RPM scale - you'll be trading off torque for HP - so off the line you might not feel as fast - but you'll get a nice top end rush.

On top of the above, increasing the compression ratio (so each power stroke is packing a bigger wallop) can work wonders BUT you've got to be conscious about fuel quality or you can burn exhaust valves, burn ring lands or put nifty holes into your piston domes.

The limiting factor will eventually be RPM - which is a mass limitation - lighter connecting rods and pistons, lightened crankshaft counterweights, very careful balancing of the rotating assembly and the like, a lightened flywheel will all allow you to spin the engine faster but be forewarned - when you reach the point of failure it really hurts to know that crank you've got a couple grand sunk into is now a doorstop. Also - as RPM goes up you'll need to be more agressive with valve spring rates to keep the valves from "floating" - which will help wear out your customized camshafts faster. I'm not sure if anyone has fitted roller lifters to a C900 - but they help as cam profiles get "silly fast" - really light non-hydraulic solid lifters - shimmed for correct adjustment - will help keep things together as well.

You MIGHT want to research what people have done / are doing with 16V VW engines - there's a bit more info for them than for the Saab engines (as turbos are less common on older VW's than on Saabs) -
 

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SteveTheFolkie said:
Saab engines aren't "special" - the same basics that build horsepower apply to most NA engines.
Ding ding ding. There are gobs of NA honda motors putting out 200whp. The only mystery (tragedy?) about Saab NA engines is that people hear "sell your car, buy a turbo" and they do, so nobody ever puts any effort into tuning the NA (adding forced induction or keeping it all motor).

For the time/energy/money I've put into my motor, at this point it really wouldn't have mattered much what I started with.
 

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IronJoe said:
Ding ding ding. There are gobs of NA honda motors putting out 200whp. The only mystery (tragedy?) about Saab NA engines is that people hear "sell your car, buy a turbo" and they do, so nobody ever puts any effort into tuning the NA (adding forced induction or keeping it all motor).

For the time/energy/money I've put into my motor, at this point it really wouldn't have mattered much what I started with.
I think this comes about because hte turbo engines are available and somewhat easier to tune - crank up the boost, open the exhaust and bingo - more power. Building a "non-adder" engine takes a bit more engineering and effort. I'm not trying to put down the turbo builders - what they do is remarkable - but going back to my V8 days - adding nitros or a supercharger was a far easier path to HP than doing the port work, working on flow dynamics, figuring out fuel requirements, cutting valve pockets into piston domes to max out the CR with a high lift cam -

200HP out of an unboosted 1.8l 16V VW wasn't uncommon - but it did take a lot of work. Sort of like getting 650HP (at the rear wheels) out of a 409 ;)
 

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IronJoe said:
Ding ding ding. There are gobs of NA honda motors putting out 200whp. The only mystery (tragedy?) about Saab NA engines is that people hear "sell your car, buy a turbo" and they do, so nobody ever puts any effort into tuning the NA (adding forced induction or keeping it all motor).

For the time/energy/money I've put into my motor, at this point it really wouldn't have mattered much what I started with.
Hey!! Don't tar everyone with the same brush :cheesy:.

I am in the process of building two 8V N/A performance engines, one is a B engine for my 99 EMS the other is an H engine for my '83 99 GL, non of this turbo testosterone, ''oh yeah just turn up yer boost'' for me :p.

The GL project has been named 'project turbo killer', the idea behind this is to get my humble 99 GL up to and beyond the power output of a 99 turbo, so no turbo lag and a throttle response only turbo owners can dream about.
Big inlet valve flowed head, special 44mm inlet valves, 284 deg catcam with 12.2 mm lift and 109 deg lobe, 45mm jenvey throttle bodies, MSS 4-2-1 exhaust, Magneti Marrelli 8p ECU.

The EMS engine will have even bigger special inlet valves, 46mm and slightly larger exhaust valves, 288 deg catcam with 12.5mm lift and 106 deg lobe, dellorto 45P dellorto DHLA carbs, 4-2-1 manifold, ignition controlled by ECU, this engine is a bit more extreme than the GL. The unusual part of this engine is the valve train, even though the inlet valves are 4mm larger than standard, they only weigh 80g compared to 94g of the standard 42mm Saab valves, the buckets are also much lighter and stronger at 69g, compared to 95g Saab buckets.
 

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There is nothing that sounds as good as a tuned N/A, and there are still ton's of people out there who have rock solid info as to making these things go.


Just seems most of all the expense can't be justafide for most people that is why turbos seem like a great option.

The other thing is a turbo charged car is only turbo'd when your on boost. Otherwise you get the same consistant gas mileage off boost, but then again smooth drivability.

On a tuned N/A you get all or nothing. My car would fall on it's face below 3500rpms. Was common to stall out at stop signs on hills unless I spun the tires. Much like driving a highly tuned 2 stroke but not.
 

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allessence said:
There is nothing that sounds as good as a tuned N/A, and there are still ton's of people out there who have rock solid info as to making these things go.


Just seems most of all the expense can't be justafide for most people that is why turbos seem like a great option.

The other thing is a turbo charged car is only turbo'd when your on boost. Otherwise you get the same consistant gas mileage off boost, but then again smooth drivability.

On a tuned N/A you get all or nothing. My car would fall on it's face below 3500rpms. Was common to stall out at stop signs on hills unless I spun the tires. Much like driving a highly tuned 2 stroke but not.
Sorry, i do not agree about the 'all or nothing' part of a tuned N/A, it all depends on what you want to acheive, more often than not the wrong cam is chosen with to wild a profile, my Peugeot 106 S1 pulls from around 2500rpm up to just over 7000rpm and i have not fitted the throttle bodies yet!
 

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SteveTheFolkie said:
I think this comes about because hte turbo engines are available and somewhat easier to tune - crank up the boost, open the exhaust and bingo - more power. Building a "non-adder" engine takes a bit more engineering and effort.
Of course. But rarely does one set out with their ultimate goals in place. There was a point in which I *knew* I'd never upgrade my intercooler, my injectors, my turbo, or do a head swap, or put in different cams, or my wastegate, or my exhaust manifold, or go standalone engine management.

But one by one... my goals changed and I did the "next" upgrade. And four intercoolers, three turbos, two heads, four boost controllers, two sets of cams, five sets of injectors, four transmissions, two sets of manifolds and five wastegates later, here I am. (and the end result is still undefined... somewhere in the 250-300whp range hopefully)


With a NA 900, an engineered plan w/budget from start to finish would definitely help things along.
 

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sonett1 said:
Sorry, i do not agree about the 'all or nothing' part of a tuned N/A, it all depends on what you want to acheive, more often than not the wrong cam is chosen with to wild a profile, my Peugeot 106 S1 pulls from around 2500rpm up to just over 7000rpm and i have not fitted the throttle bodies yet!
I never said it was all or nothing. I simply stated what I had done with my engine and that with proper planning you can have one heck of a good engine.

Just don't go into it blind and expect things to work out. I was very happy with a 3500rpm-6700rpm power-8500 redline. I acheived my goal.

As for the Peugeot 106 S1 (must remember carbed vs fuel injection and totally different generation of cars and technology.

There is nothing like technology to make a car go fast. Would be nice simply to chip a C900 and get 75-100 more HP wouldn't it.
 

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allessence said:
I never said it was all or nothing. I simply stated what I had done with my engine and that with proper planning you can have one heck of a good engine.

Just don't go into it blind and expect things to work out. I was very happy with a 3500rpm-6700rpm power-8500 redline. I acheived my goal.

As for the Peugeot 106 S1 (must remember carbed vs fuel injection and totally different generation of cars and technology.

There is nothing like technology to make a car go fast. Would be nice simply to chip a C900 and get 75-100 more HP wouldn't it.
Sorry Jen, mis-understanding, sounded like a generalisation.

The 106 S1 rallye is not a carb engine, this 1294cc all aluminium engine was built by the Peugeot competition department and was an homologated special, the throttle body is almost the same size as on a 2 litre Saab, the inlet manifold is excellent on these cars, fitting throttle bodies will only give you about 5-7 bhp, a bit more torque, but a great throttle response and a wonderful sound. 100bhp from a 1294cc engine in standard trim, in a car weighing in at 825kg, mine is giving out 130bhp, i'll leave you to work out the power to weight ratio and then compare it to a 900 turbo!
 

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wait, N/A's need money to mod also:eek:? haha only kidding. Maybe people have N/A's because they can't afford the turbo or expensive turbo modifications. I'm just trying to use what I have. At the same time I could get a new car but don't want to. There's a 2.3 head at my local u-pull. A good starting point?
 
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