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Discussion Starter #1
Can someone enlighten me on the following question, or am I missing something?

If I were to fit a sports exhaust (supposedly adds about 10 - 15bhp), K & N, ITG or equivalent air filter (few more added bhp), bigger intercooler (yet more bhp), nice big TD04 turbo (even more bhp), uprated injectors (to cope with the extra demand), what actual difference would it make without changing/remapping the ECU, as I believe that would still control what the engine is capeable of?? :eek:
 

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The engine map would still be for the GT-17 turbo therefore not making the most of the TD-04 you just installed.
 

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You can't change the injectors and not the ECU and expect the car to run well or even at all.
 

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What was the point you feared you were missing? :confused:
 

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kittybeldie said:
Can someone enlighten me on the following question, or am I missing something?

If I were to fit a sports exhaust (supposedly adds about 10 - 15bhp), K & N, ITG or equivalent air filter (few more added bhp), bigger intercooler (yet more bhp), nice big TD04 turbo (even more bhp), uprated injectors (to cope with the extra demand), what actual difference would it make without changing/remapping the ECU, as I believe that would still control what the engine is capeable of?? :eek:
From my understanding of Trionic 7, you are correct in your assuumption that none of those changes would make a difference in creating more power than what the ECU is programmed to allow. So when someone changes their exhaust and says that their car feels faster, its really just all imagined in their head.
 

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I dissagree, when we added a FMIC to my Blue 9-5 we gained almost 20 bhp :eek:

No remap was done.........

Admittedly it was on a "power hungry stage 4" but I do feel trionic can adapt positively when the conditions it experiences enable it to.

Upgraded hardware can assist Trionic in achieving the best power levels in my opinion :confused:
 

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Chris 9-5 said:
What was the point you feared you were missing? :confused:
The point is that when manufacturers make claims about the power increase their bit of hardware will give you (ie exhaust, filter and intercooler together should add anywhere between 20 - 30 bhp) will you get that without any changes to your ECU, or will it just make your engine a bit more efficient?
 

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Hmmm, my opinion (flawed as it is)

Some of them make the whole thing more efficient, this helps to get peak power more reliably and with less effort, (maybe save some petrol in the process).

Some wont make any difference, some would positively make it worse, like injectors.

The maximum gains from hardware usually need software mapped to realise these gains.

Regarding the figures quoted just for hardware - they want to sell you the part!

Hardware alone can help - some of us with auto's had dynos done with base boost only (due to the rear wheels not turning) but still showed figures way over stock!
 

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Chris 9-5 said:
Admittedly it was on a "power hungry stage 4" but I do feel trionic can adapt positively when the conditions it experiences enable it to.
The reason you saw a gain is you were likely pushing the turbo passed its efficiency range. This causes the turbo to heat the air charge a great deal, which is why a intercooler is such a great upgrade at that point. An unmodded LPT will be right in its efficiency range so it won't see any where near the gain.
 

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These figures (10-15 bhp for an exhaust etc) are made to get you buy something. You're a lot more likely to part with your hard earned money in the belief you are getting 10-15 bhp, if they advertise real life 2-4 bhp you are less inclined to purchase. However 2-4 bhp may make for a nicer driving characteristic of the vehicle thus making it seem more powerful.
 

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I also had the tdo4 installed but without the remap you just get more lag

also i upgraded the injectors then took them out again becaue i nearly shot the cat
in other words by all means instal the parts but you will have to have a remap then you will definatley feel the gains :cool:
 

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SteveY said:
From my understanding of Trionic 7, you are correct in your assuumption that none of those changes would make a difference in creating more power than what the ECU is programmed to allow. So when someone changes their exhaust and says that their car feels faster, its really just all imagined in their head.
No, some H/W mods can actually make the car faster. Not because the "logic" of T7 is, all of a sudden, thrown aside but simply because T7 no longer works exactly the way it was intended to.

Example: a large 3" turbo back exhaust will cause "overshooting" effects that T7 simply can't handle, thus creating higher torque and hp levels.

Best regards,

KK
 

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Kermit said:
These figures (10-15 bhp for an exhaust etc) are made to get you buy something. You're a lot more likely to part with your hard earned money in the belief you are getting 10-15 bhp, if they advertise real life 2-4 bhp you are less inclined to purchase. However 2-4 bhp may make for a nicer driving characteristic of the vehicle thus making it seem more powerful.
I've seen dyno measured power gains of 13 hp from a turbo back Ferrita on a "stock" 9-5 Aero. Reason why is in my previous post...:)

Best regards,

KK
 

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Raven18940 said:
The reason you saw a gain is you were likely pushing the turbo passed its efficiency range. This causes the turbo to heat the air charge a great deal, which is why a intercooler is such a great upgrade at that point. An unmodded LPT will be right in its efficiency range so it won't see any where near the gain.
Hi,

You're bang on the money here. First of all a good FMIC is ALWAYS an effective upgrade, even on e.g. a stock 9-5 Aero. Secondly 99,99% of all stage 1-3 tuned cars are running slightly (well, some waaaaay more than slightly...:cheesy: ) to the upper right of the effective compressor map, thus pushing very warm air into the intake. This will affect both peak power (on a dyno), but even more real life hard driving, such as long repeated pulls in 4th or 5th gear.

Best regards,

KK
 

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While all that may be true, the fact of the matter is you will not realize essentially any performance gains from those upgrades you spent a LOT of money on without doing the ECU upgrade. You can spend $1,000 on an exhaust, but your really only going to get, lets say $250 worth out of it w/o an ECU, and $100 of that is because you like the sound a lot. :cool:
 

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SectorNine50 said:
You can spend $1,000 on an exhaust, but your really only going to get, lets say $250 worth out of it w/o an ECU, and $100 of that is because you like the sound a lot. :cool:
The sound of a Ferrita growl when flooring it in a tunnel is wort a hundred bucks a pop easy. :cheesy: I go through two tunnels to work each day so I calculated on paying back my investment in about 2,5 work days. It's pure profit from there on in...:cool:

Then again, the sound of a roaring Ferrita 3" trying to evacuate exhaust gasses from 25 PSI of ethanol anger, that's a whole different ball game...:D

And yes, I do roll down my windows to hear the sound...eh...once in a while...;oops:

Best regards,

KK
 

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KKAero said:
I've seen dyno measured power gains of 13 hp from a turbo back Ferrita on a "stock" 9-5 Aero.
Hmmmm.......that's got my attention:cheesy:

I was thinking about getting a Ferrita turbo back for my '04 Aero, and you may have just convinced me to get one sooner rather than later.....:lol:
 

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aeropilot said:
Hmmmm.......that's got my attention:cheesy:

I was thinking about getting a Ferrita turbo back for my '04 Aero, and you may have just convinced me to get one sooner rather than later.....:lol:
Well, it's worth it! Only drawback is, it's even easier (or rather even more beneficial) to "Happen to" (well, that's what I said to the wife...:cheesy: ) replace the stock S/W with another one. :confused:

Best regards,

KK
 

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KKAero said:
Well, it's worth it! Only drawback is, it's even easier (or rather even more beneficial) to "Happen to" (well, that's what I said to the wife...:cheesy: ) replace the stock S/W with another one. :confused:
Software would come later......can't do all at once, so want to take care of some hardware bits first with getting the exhaust fitted, and then later on a better intercooler.

Then in the future, a 06 cobra & machined housing with a 'custom' Stage 3 ECU to take account of the intercooler and 06 cobra.

That's the plan......:)
 
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