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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last week I posted that my Saab was losing power and dashlights were going dim etc. I pinpointed the issue to the ignition switch. So I replaced it. After replacing it the car started and then started to miss. I put it into gear and it immediately quit. The car now turns over and will not start. The lights no longer go dim, so maybe the ignition switch was bad and no something else is wrong. Here is what I have checked so far....
1) Fuel pump comes on when I turn the key on. Good!
2) I can hear the fuel pump pumping when I turn the car over. Good!
3) I pulled out the sparks plugs and there is fuel on the plugs. I can see it and smell it. Good!
4) The spark plugs looked old and the gap was huge from wear so I replaced them with NGK plugs, PN from the FAQs.
5) I put the plugs in the DIC, connected to a ground and they are all getting spark, and they have the spark burst after shutting the car off. Good!
6) Check fuel pressure and it is about 42psi. Good!
7) Also disconnected the battery and waited 5 minutes to ensure all codes were reset.

So the car is getting spark, getting fuel, and the CPS is good since the fuel pump is working. The car still turns over and will not start. Very frustrated any help would be appreciated.

Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Is it possible that the DIC will work when it is upside down, and then stop working when it is bolted into the car? I don't have a spare and I don't know anyone else with a Saab I could switch it out with.

Dan
 

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Did you try some starting fluid? just because the pump is running and you have fuel pressure doesn't mean the injectors are opening to allow the fuel in. This is a 2 minute test which will tell you whether to go hunting fuel, spark or something else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There is fuel on the spark plugs. So the injectors have to be putting fuel into the cylinder correct?

I was getting fuel pressure before I changed the ignition switch, I went out and double checked and unfortunately it does not seem to have enough pressure. I borrowed the fuel pressure tester so I don't have it, but when I remove the line from the fuel filter and try to start the car. Fuel only comes out in a slow stream. At 40psi, I would think it should be a pretty hard, constant stream. So, maybe fuel pump is running, but no putting out enough pressure? Would that make the car not start at all? Not even try to start?

Dan
 

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Well the plugs could be too wet. Here's what I would do:
1. Remove the plugs, clean, dry and reinstall.
2. Spray a bunch of starter fluid into the TB and see if it starts.
If it does then I would check for voltage to the FP while cranking and then if you have voltage recheck the fuel pressure.
If it doesn't start then recheck the DIC, you can always use the wire to ground the spark plugs to also secure them tightly in the DIC that way you can check with the DIC in the correct orientation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Update

Ok, so I finally had a chance to work on the car again. Here is the most recent issue....

I checked the DIC and it seemed to be working. So I bought a can of ether and sprayed it into the throttle body while turning the car over. The car starts and runs then quits. So....It is not getting fuel.
-When I turn the key on I can here the fuel pump prime.
-When I turn the car over I can here the fuel pump running.
So the fuel pump is at least getting power and running when it is supposed to be.
-This all means that the CPS is working. At least that is my understanding.
Questions....
1) Could the pump be working and not be putting out enough pressure to allow the car to run?
2) Could the fuel pressure regulator be bad? If so, where is it and is there a way to test it?
3) Is there anything I am missing that could be causing it to not get fuel?

Thanks,

Dan
 

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I was getting fuel pressure before I changed the ignition switch, I went out and double checked and unfortunately it does not seem to have enough pressure. I borrowed the fuel pressure tester so I don't have it, but when I remove the line from the fuel filter and try to start the car. Fuel only comes out in a slow stream. At 40psi, I would think it should be a pretty hard, constant stream. So, maybe fuel pump is running, but no putting out enough pressure? Would that make the car not start at all? Not even try to start?
Dan
When you un plugged the line at the filter, did you do it upstream or downstream of the filter? If the filter is totally clogged, it could reduce flow to the point where the car won't start/run. Only other options point to the fuel pump or something about the assembly in the tank.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I did it downstream of the filter, but I just replaced the filter. So unless I somehow got a faulty filter I would not think it was that. I will check fuel pressure and see what it is. Is there a port on the fuel rail or do you have to disconnect the fuel line and put the pressure tester in line?

Dan
 

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the fuel pump is high pressure low flow system. so until you gain pressure its just going to drizzle, or restriction. check your FPR
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Another update

Ok, so here is where I am at now.

-There is power going to all of the injectors, and they seem to be opening.
-I disconnected the vacuum to the FPR and no fuel comes through the vacuum line.
-I have a hole cut in the floor for the fuel pump so I decided to see if I am getting any return to the fuel tank. There is none!

So why would I not be getting any return to the tank? Could the FPR be completely plugged? And the car still does not start.:x

Dan
 

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I would check the lines inside of the pump assembly, on one of mine there was a kink in the line that would greatly restrict fuel flow. Also if the pump insert was ever replaced and submersible line wasn't used in the assembly then that could become a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Rather than pull the pump, I removed the pressure line on the pump assembly. When I turned the car over fuel comes out like a geyser. Good thing I cut a decent size hole so my interior is not full of gas. LOL Anyway the pump seems to be working and fuel is going into the pressure line. There is also fuel in the fuel filter. After trying to start the car, If I disconnect a line from the fuel filter there is pressure building as fuel with spray out. So I am getting fuel at least to the filter. There is no fuel on the spark plugs though, and no matter how long I try to start the car, I can not smell fuel. I checked all the lines for kinks/breaks and can't find any.

Dan
 

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If you have fuel pressure at the rail (and a decent amount) and all the plugs are dry and the car will only start on starter fluid, yet the injectors are all grounding at the correct time to open, then I would say the injectors are plugged, since all 4 of them plugging at the same time is unlikely, I would go back and start from scratch and double check everything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Another update

Sorry for the long time between posts, I just don't have time to work on this car a lot.

So, I went back and double checked everything.
-Fuel pump is working both when the key is turned on and when the car turns over.
-Fuel pressure at the fuel filter is 45psi.
-Fuel pressure at the fuel rail is 45psi.
-The injectors all seem to be working, though it is hard to know if they are ALL plugged. Since this is very unlikely I went on.
-I still have NO return to the fuel tank when I turn the car over.
-I pulled out a spark plug, after turning the car over, and there is no fuel.
-I also double checked all fuses, and they are all fine.
-I removed the air line from the FPR and turned the car over, no fuel in the air line.
-I removed the FPR from the fuel rail and a small amount of fuel spilled from the fuel rail.
-I cleaned up the FPR and tried to blow/suck through it. I am NOT able to do either. I am not sure if this is normal or not.

If the FPR was stuck closed would it cause me to not get return to the pump and cause the car not to start?

Thanks,
Dan
 

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I've not heard of inferring anything about the CPS based upon the fuel pump. Usually, though, the engine tachometer is a good confirmation that the CPS is functioning. When you turn over the engine to start it, you get RPMs indicated on the tach, right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
No, the tach don't move when I turn the engine over. Should I see RPM's when I turn the engine over? Why would I not get fuel through the injectors if the CPS was bad?

My understanding was that if the CPS was not working the fuel pump would not work when the engine was being turned over. I found this on the internet, so not sure if it is correct or not.

Thanks,
Dan
 

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Aah, I missed one of your posts:
-When I turn the key on I can here the fuel pump prime.
-When I turn the car over I can here the fuel pump running.
So the fuel pump is at least getting power and running when it is supposed to be.
-This all means that the CPS is working. At least that is my understanding.

Plus, yeah, as you aid, the CPS pulsing is a prerequisite for the main and fuel pump relay, I now read. If the fuel pump is running while turning over the car, that would suggest the CPS is indeed pulsing, allowing the ECU to activate the fuel pump relay (and main relay for the ignition module). You could also verify the CPS's resistance is 540 ohms +/- 55ohms between pins 1/2 and infinite ohms between pins 1/3 if there were lingering doubt.

You mentioned the car runs briefly when you try to start it after spraying ether into the intake, so yeah, as you said, that suggests spark is good (and the prerequisite CPS behind that). You mentioned in an earlier post, there was fuel in the cylinder when you pulled a spark plug, but that there was not in a later post. You mentioned in an earlier post that lights on the injectors lit, but I wonder if this is still so now?

From WIS:
"As soon as the engine starts to rotate and the ECM receives pulses from the CPS, the main relay and fuel pump relay operate, causing all injectors to open simultaneously and squire a small amount of fuel into the intake valves. Injector opening duration is determined by the coolant temperature.

The purpose is to achieve short starting times. After this initial injection of fuel, the system reverts to regular sequential multiport fuel injection."

Based on the pressures you indicated, it doesn't seem the be the pump, CPS, or FPR. That it runs on starting fluid suggests it isn't the ignition system or CPS. At the moment, the injectors are suspect because you cannot detect fuel delivery, but they worked previously (both fuel delivery and lights on the injectors).

It's a weird one. All I can think is there might be a fault with ECU/ECM ground. The injectors get power from the main relay, but ground through the ECU and out via ground point G7P (bolted to lower driver side of intake manifold).

Keep us posted...
 
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