SaabCentral Forums banner
1 - 20 of 62 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ive done the shifter alignment, and tried every possible gear then trying reverse no dice. The way i was getting the key out prior to this was to be on a very slight hill, roll into first with the car still running and then when the car rolled back i was able to slide it into reverse.

That no longer works, so if my reverse gear just completely gone now? Plastic clip under the shifter boot looks fine.

Also like to mention i can't get the key out whether the car is running or off.

Clutch has 40k miles on it so id be surprised if that was the cause but its possible

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,231 Posts
Does it slot perfectly into all the other gears, and when you pull it out of fourth with just one finger, does it go straight back and sit there in neutral, or does it move a bit to the side when it hits the neutral gate?

If the answer to the above is "no", the alignment is still not good.

If the answer is "yes", then I would look again at what happens when you pull up on the reverse lockout and that the bottom of that long tube clears everything down on the shifter base.

It's possible that reverse is completely out, but that is not a common problem.

Another approach is, with the car sitting still and the engine off, to put the shifter into first gear, and then try for reverse. That overcomes bad reverse synchros (which shouldn't go out anyway).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Does it slot perfectly into all the other gears, and when you pull it out of fourth with just one finger, does it go straight back and sit there in neutral, or does it move a bit to the side when it hits the neutral gate?

If the answer to the above is "no", the alignment is still not good.

If the answer is "yes", then I would look again at what happens when you pull up on the reverse lockout and that the bottom of that long tube clears everything down on the shifter base.

It's possible that reverse is completely out, but that is not a common problem.

Another approach is, with the car sitting still and the engine off, to put the shifter into first gear, and then try for reverse. That overcomes bad reverse synchros (which shouldn't go out anyway).
The car shifts into every other gear without issue. I cant do that test you mentioned with 4th gear but ill try at lunch, i could try alignment once more as a hail mary. Also yes i have tried with the car off going to first then, reverse no dice. Ive also tried it going from second then reverse etc etc. This gearbox was abused for a long time and every syncho and bearing has wear so it possible reverse is just gone
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,231 Posts
Hmm. I would think that if it's just the reverse synchros that are gone, yes it might not go into gear while the engine is running, but you would feel it grinding through the shifter if you forced it.

I guess the other possibility is that the clutch is failing. Although that should not make a difference if the engine is off and you've slotted it in a couple of forward gears first. But your symptom that you could get it into reverse by rolling backwards kind of points to the clutch (because if you are close to matching what the car is doing to the trans gear you are trying to get, it's possible to get the lever in gear [and out of gear] without using the clutch at all).

Maybe take a picture and post it, of your shifter and lockout mechanism (with the boot pulled up); we may spot something off.

It could be that the reverse lockout itself is failing, but it doesn't generally, and again I don't see why you were be able to get it into revers by rolling backwards if that was the case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Hmm. I would think that if it's just the reverse synchros that are gone, yes it might not go into gear while the engine is running, but you would feel it grinding through the shifter if you forced it.

I guess the other possibility is that the clutch is failing. Although that should not make a difference if the engine is off and you've slotted it in a couple of forward gears first. But your symptom that you could get it into reverse by rolling backwards kind of points to the clutch (because if you are close to matching what the car is doing to the trans gear you are trying to get, it's possible to get the lever in gear [and out of gear] without using the clutch at all).

Maybe take a picture and post it, of your shifter and lockout mechanism (with the boot pulled up); we may spot something off.

It could be that the reverse lockout itself is failing, but it doesn't generally, and again I don't see why you were be able to get it into revers by rolling backwards if that was the case.
Ya thats called power shifting i believe, my friend with a bad clutch on his dodge cummins used to do that (obviously easier with a diesel because of the lower rpm range). Ill post a picture/video later at lunch so give me a few hours! Ill also try gear alignment with a tighter tolerance allen key if i can find one and pray.

Also i dont think its the synchros failing then edT because i cant "force" it into gear like you said it should be able to force in but make an audible grind if it was the synchros. When i try it, it just hits a wall and just stops i put lots of pressure to the point where it obviously would cause linkage damage if i continued.

Clutch could be an issue i did it myself two years ago but i did torque it correctly with loctite. Could be slightly warped but who knows.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,231 Posts
What I found with doing shifter alignments is that you want the tightest possible fit for the alignment pin. I searched through screwdrivers and drill bits to find the biggest possible item that fit in the holes. That helps make the alignment as good as possible.

That being said, I am not sure that alignment is the problem here.

As another question, what happens if the engine is off, and you try to get it reverse while at the same time trying to turn the key to LOCK?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,089 Posts
When you actually get it into reverse on a slight hill does it make strange noises? My thought would be to check your mounts, if the engine mount is failing or failed you can't get it into reverse gear. Look at the passenger side mount and see if the oil pan is sitting on the subframe that's a clear indication.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
When you actually get it into reverse on a slight hill does it make strange noises? My thought would be to check your mounts, if the engine mount is failing or failed you can't get it into reverse gear. Look at the passenger side mount and see if the oil pan is sitting on the subframe that's a clear indication.
Nope when i did the rolling back trick no abnormal noises or grinding. Ill check mounts but the passenger side one is 6 months old and the transmission mount is about a year old. Id be very shocked if my motor was sitting on my subframe but it gives me another thing to look at my lunch break so thanks

**as an edit i do recall now that my reverse used to make a humming/grinding noise occasionally when put into reverse but that was months ago and had since stopped doing that. I think it was just taking a long time for everything to mesh up correctly as i did try to engage rather quickly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
What I found with doing shifter alignments is that you want the tightest possible fit for the alignment pin. I searched through screwdrivers and drill bits to find the biggest possible item that fit in the holes. That helps make the alignment as good as possible.

That being said, I am not sure that alignment is the problem here.

As another question, what happens if the engine is off, and you try to get it reverse while at the same time trying to turn the key to LOCK?
Sounds like a good idea ill try turing the key to lock as i engage reverse. Ill report back once again in a few hours... Thanks for the little tricks ill be trying that along with the putting 4th gear into neutral test that you mentioned on your first post to check the condition of the alignment
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
I guess i could get a clear indication if its a broken transmission by removing the shifter linkage completely and use some tape and pliers to just engage reverse manually using the selector rod.

Anyone know which way id be twisting/pulling the selector rod to test reverse? If i had to guess.. The linkage when going to reverse (pushing the shifter to the right from neutral causes the gear selector shaft to turn counterclockwise, so id be putting it into neutral, then going to the selector rod twisting it counterclockwise and then pull back? And fifth gear would be the same but pushing the selector shaft in? If that sounds correct please let me know! Cu C


Also my clutch pressure seems fine and every other gear works so how would i even tell if its a clutch issue short of replacing it? Doesn't seem easily diagnosable. I think i read online a warped clutch plate can cause reverse issues.

**as an edit i guess one of the only ways (if not only) way to tell if its the clutch is if i can get the car into reverse with the car not running,but cant while its running its most likely the clutch. Currently it doesn't engage whether off or on, so i dont know what to make of it.

I read another post about white ring that holds the shifter yolk in place that can become dislodged (happens the posted said after having difficult reverse shifting) so i will try and take the plastic ring out and re-install it per his instruction)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
So i got my key out after doing another shifter alignment with a tighter tolerance. BUT idk what happened or i only just noticing but my clutch pressure feels like its around 75%.

What should i do to try and remedy this? I have a motive pressure bleeder, i could try re-bleeding the clutch. Or i could use the 2x4 method again.

What causes a clutches pressure to wear over time? Air getting into the brake fluid i possible right? My fluid is pretty old i never have done a full flush but did refresh about two quarts last time i bled the clutch. Does the pressure just drop over time with normal wear of the clutch and slave cylinder? (Clutch is 40k miles old)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
441 Posts
It shouldn't change. Unless the master or slave cylinder is bad (did you use OEM slave?).

Symptoms of a bad reverse idler: Blocked from going into reverse unless the car is rolling backwards.
Symptoms of bad clutch: Blocked from going into any gear (although I suppose it might show up on 1st gear and reverse first).

I thought this was a fairly common problem - google "viggen won't go into reverse gear"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It shouldn't change. Unless the master or slave cylinder is bad (did you use OEM slave?).

Symptoms of a bad reverse idler: Blocked from going into reverse unless the car is rolling backwards.
Symptoms of bad clutch: Blocked from going into any gear (although I suppose it might show up on 1st gear and reverse first).
Uhmm id like to think i used a OEM slave since i usually try to with critical parts like that but i can't say for certain shout out some slave brands and i might recall...haha... I tried looking at my purchase history at Eeuroparts but the page wont load...Last time i did the slave was about 10k miles ago i did it after putting in a used gearbox. Initially when i bled i my clutch pressure was just enough to drive and i used a 2x4 overnight to get it nice and stiff.

So i suppose i could do that again or give bleeding it another go with my motive pressure bleeder and hope for an improvement
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
441 Posts
yeah in my very rough estimation of what's going on you have a broken reverse synchro or hub. So it's blocking the shifter from moving enough to get reverse to engage. This also is not letting you engage the reverse lockout and get your key out. I hope that I am wrong, but if not it's time for another used transmission.

It's possible it's a clutch or linkage problem, but most likely not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
yeah in my very rough estimation of what's going on you have a broken reverse synchro or hub. So it's blocking the shifter from moving enough to get reverse to engage. This also is not letting you engage the reverse lockout and get your key out. I hope that I am wrong, but if not it's time for another used transmission.

It's possible it's a clutch or linkage problem, but most likely not.
Not sure if you saw my post above but i did manage to get the key out. I used a allen key that was basically an interface fit and now it goes into reverse. Was probably a MM tighter tolerance or less than the last allen key i used (rough estimate)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Car was low on fluid for a long time. It has to be the gear just is completely gone. 1-5 shift fine car off or on and reverse just isnt there, i think thats my conclusion. But im not sure why the alignment worked earlier.

Also my ignition key turns easy again without resistance so thats good...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,251 Posts
I don't think this is your issue... but remove the 5th gear guide. It also acts as the reverse lockout blocker. That will eliminate the reverse lockout as a potential issue.

FYI - I think you have the selector operation reversed. That's easy to do since it's all done in opposites. The shifter rod is attached to the shifter lever below the pivot point (the ball). So everything is in reverse.

When you move the shifter to the right to get to reverse, the rod would turn clockwise. Then when you pull back into reverse (the rod being attached below the pivot point at the shifter) the bottom of the shift shaft rod moves forward into the tranny. When you move the shifter forward to 5th, the bottom point moves backwards, pulling the rod out of the transmission.

Someone else should confirm that for us.
 
1 - 20 of 62 Posts
Top