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Discussion Starter #1
It looks like the Saturn Sky Redline will get the 2.0T in it.



So why couldn't Saab up the horsepower on the Aero to this? I much rather have a 253hp 2.0T over the the 250hp 2.8T. :confused:
 

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finklejag said:
It looks like the Saturn Sky Redline will get the 2.0T in it.



So why couldn't Saab up the horsepower on the Aero to this? I much rather have a 253hp 2.0T over the the 250hp 2.8T. :confused:
I always said my PPC'd 2.0T feels like it SHOULD have felt from the factory.
I suspect it's the litigious nature of the US market, plus releasing a 210hp version initially was the safe (re: maintenance/warranty) thing to do. I bet had the Holden engine not entered the frame, they'd be releasing higher power versions of the 2.0T as the 93SS evolves.
 

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No way

db93a said:
I always said my PPC'd 2.0T feels like it SHOULD have felt from the factory.
I suspect it's the litigious nature of the US market, plus releasing a 210hp version initially was the safe (re: maintenance/warranty) thing to do. I bet had the Holden engine not entered the frame, they'd be releasing higher power versions of the 2.0T as the 93SS evolves.
Howdoes the Litigious nature of the US have any significance with Saab and their low HP? Absolutely none.

What does have bearing is the failure of the other parts, namely transmission to hold up it's end of the bargain. The 6-speed (outsourced) was a grinding failure and has been scrapped. The shifting problems of the auto was another issue that did not help. Entering the market with the 9-3 had seen too many problems and they were trying to establish quality rating before tinkering with the engine. They have always done this. If the car had not been so error prone, then we would be seeing that engine right about now.

We have enough buy backs as it is, and enough warranty claims without the 250hp "viggen" model that never surfaced.
 

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Irishfred said:
Howdoes the Litigious nature of the US have any significance with Saab and their low HP? Absolutely none.

What does have bearing is the failure of the other parts, namely transmission to hold up it's end of the bargain. The 6-speed (outsourced) was a grinding failure and has been scrapped. The shifting problems of the auto was another issue that did not help. Entering the market with the 9-3 had seen too many problems and they were trying to establish quality rating before tinkering with the engine. They have always done this. If the car had not been so error prone, then we would be seeing that engine right about now.

We have enough buy backs as it is, and enough warranty claims without the 250hp "viggen" model that never surfaced.
I think the litigious nature of the US has bearing on most European manufacturers' engine choices for this market. What marque sold in the US doesn't have better engine choices for the European market or more powerful iterations of the same engines offered here ? I'm not saying it is the MAIN reason for Saab selling a 210hp 2.0T here but I think it has some bearing on their choice.

I have the grinding 6speed and as I plan to keep this car a while, I dread the day that it just totally gives up the ghost. I can just predict the response from Saab (I mean GM) when I have a 6-speed failure at 52k miles. I take meticulous care to try to shift carefully, especially when cold.

I do not think that the 247hp I put through the 6-speed has any bearing on the transmission's longevity either, I believe it's the fault (as you said) of the transmission, not the power of the engine. Of course not everyone is as careful shifting as I am, and I am so in general with any stick, but specifically so because I will end up having broken gear teeth down the road in this one, and GM is going to leave me stranded. I'd bet big bucks on it.

More than likely once I see how the Holden V6 turbo makes it through its first year, (and see how whatever manual transmission is put in that iteration of the Aero) I may get a newer Aero sedan and take delivery in Sweden before that place turns into a glorified Cadillac factory.
 

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Swap it out

You should go in at 49900 and get a new one (if it lasts that long and if you still have the car). It's a pain, but it is their fault and they know that it is faulty. They dropped it, for goodness sakes.

I am pretty peeved about these quality issues. It hurts us all in our pocketbooks and time and dismay, and it hurts Saab.

Where was R&D on this car? It's like they did not shift and did not turn on the radio in this thing.
 

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Don't know what your Transmission isssues were, but a vehicle's Powertrain needs to be considered as a system. Changing the Engine's horsepower and torque can have unexpected consequences if it takes the transmission out of its design limits.
 

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hz536n said:
Don't know what your Transmission isssues were, but a vehicle's Powertrain needs to be considered as a system. Changing the Engine's horsepower and torque can have unexpected consequences if it takes the transmission out of its design limits.
That is a valid point, but if this 6speed transmission wasn't engineered to handle 247hp and 286 pound feet that my PPC'd 2.0T generates, then this will be my last Saab. It was grinding long before I did any tuning, it was grinding from 1st to second the day I drove the car home. I waited almost a year intentionally before purchasing the PPC unit,to see that the engine was sound and transmission likewise aside from the griding (minor adjustments is all the dealer says they can do. It's time to talk to my district service rep).

Not you nor anyone could convince me that Stage 1 PPC adversely affects my transmission because you don't know how gently I drive my car. I rarely get on it hard, and then only once I'm safely in a gear. I use the increased torque and better throttle response to improve my around-town driving experience, I bought PPC for driveability improvements, not for racing around hard. I do not beat on this engine or transmission.
 

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Not trying to convince you of anything about your driving habits.

Just offering a bit of input from 36+ years in an automotive company's Powertrain group.

You are right, if you already know the answer then no one can help. I will stand down in respect to your firm and profound grasp of the subject matter. Sorry for the unwanted view expressed in my errant post, I'll try not to do it again.
 

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hz536n said:
Don't know what your Transmission isssues were, but a vehicle's Powertrain needs to be considered as a system. Changing the Engine's horsepower and torque can have unexpected consequences if it takes the transmission out of its design limits.
Have to agree, I too am a powertrain engineer with experience of automotive and off highway trucks. Drivetrains are designed to meet specific power (and often more importantly torque) specifications. Exceeding these parameters tends to reduce drastically the B10 life of the system.

Yes, manufacturers design in a factor of safety in their calculations, but they do not design them with their customers abusing them significantly in mind.

Recent Mercedes products have had to have the engine output limited because their auto boxes were torque limited. Any increase in torque would have reduced the life to an unacceptable level.

I have the 6 speed transmission, and I don't have any tuning and the shift is not good. Tuning will not change the shift quality one iota in my opinioon, however it will reduce the life of the bearings and gears of the transmission and differential and could leading to drive shaft failure in extreme cases.

I may tune the car because I want more performance. If I do, I will at that time be acceptiong that I may have to pay to replace/repair the gearbox at some future time. It would not be reasonable to expect GM to cover this. My experience with powertrains and examining failures would suggest that the GM powertrain engineers would be able to tell from the failed parts if the failure was due to tuninjg or not, irrespectivce of what the ECU says after the failure....

Just my thoughts. If we know who the gearbox manufacturer is and what model number it is, then it should be possible to find out the power and torque design specifications. There won't be too many manufacturers making front wheel drive 6 speed boxes....

If the new Aero (250 bhp) has the exact same gearbox, then you should be OK.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If the Hirsch 2.0T output is 252hp. Then the powertrain can handle it. Saab has two factory engineers down at Hirsch.
 

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And just to say it ... from everything I saw and read, the 6-Speed was only scrapped in the States ... I know for fact Canada was still getting them.
 

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I was told at my dealer, correct or incorrect, that they scrapped the 6 speed because there was so few chosing it inthe US it wasn't economical to keep the spare parts needed to service both 5 and 6 speed.
 

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finklejag said:
If the Hirsch 2.0T output is 252hp. Then the powertrain can handle it. Saab has two factory engineers down at Hirsch.
Might the cost of the Hirsch upgrade be in some way linked to the cost of the warranty that that they have to underwrite?

Can't say what the effect on the life of the transmission would be having Hirsch 252 bhp (or any other amount of power for that matter). It could be original design spec is 200,000 miles and that upgrade reduces it to 100,000 miles. Or whatever the figures are. Increasing the power will inevitably shorten the life.

The fact that a different vehicle with the same engine (returning to the original point) is only relevant if the car uses the same transmission as the Saab.

Without having any of the powertrain engineers from GM on here to say what the design spec was / is or why the 6 speed was dropped then we are all just speculating what / why / if.

One day the transmission may fail. If the car has been tuned then you may be less likely to get any help from GM fixing it. Just my opinion.
 

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The six speed box is alive and well on the 1.9tdi's - so it cant be that bad as the 150BHP pumps out a respectable torque figure?
 

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The 6 speed is most definitely still available as an option in Canada. Of course in Canada we are less litiginous and have much poorer consumer protection, so I guess GM thought they could get away with it here :nono;

However, in terms of hp/torque, it's crazy to say Saab kept the 210 hp limit for legal reasons unless you think they were aware of all the possible teething problems with the 9-3SS and figured any more would threaten the drivetrain's integrity. That would indeed be the makings of a lawsuit.

More to the point, the 9-3SS has pretty much the lowest available hp of ANY car from ANY country in it's segment. SO how come every other manufacturer can make an engine/transmission/drivetrain combination that can take 250 plus hp and Saab can't ? It's bizzare.
 

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210hp is a still big mystery, many different theories, one is fear of torque steering, another popular is power balance between 9-3 and 9-5.

9-3 SS press tells that powertrain can handle safely up to 400Nm torque.
Aero has 300Nm so there is room to play. Saab didnt want to use Aero name in the USA but vector trademark issue changed that.

I dont think that 6-speed manual has anything to do with it.
And like said before, you cant have 5-speed manual with 1.9 diesel, only 6-speed.

But also when new 2.0 came it was initually considered very weak.
Big safety marginals is one theory. Hirsch(Saab's M/AMG) has 252hp version...

Obviously original plans got changed, we just dont know why. Delayed awd could be yet another.

This forum has a person who could tell facts but in the end he cant so we just keep on guessing.
 
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