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  #41  
Old 4th June 2014
JohnLear JohnLear is offline
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Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
Thnx very much John,,,
Being a mech engr and running critical projects, learned and preached : 'KISS"[Keep It Simple Stupid !], but these designers now go nuts when told 'The software can do this that and mor e of that'.
Modern electronics certainly does increase the scope for massive complexity...

Of course a lot of the complexity is forced upon the manufacturers, not just to achieve power with acceptable economy, but also legislated emissions standards.

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Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
Help me see any logic in disabling a transmission after the TB is cleaned,,,some damn fault here in TB or there, is sensed....
OK if TB defective is indicated in the code then make the frigging thing easily repairable/re-manufacturable,
First I've heard of TB cleaning being associated with any transmission issues. Keep in mind that 'TB cleaning' can mean two rather different things; cleaning the potentiometers as discussed (conductive dirt here causing electronic problems), or cleaning carbon deposits from the butterfly and bore (which will cause airflow issues at / near closed throttle).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
cleaning the Th Body
ok so when u clnd the TB, ans say results were excellent, do you mean it didnot need remanufacturing ?.,
Cleaning the TB (by either definition) has nothing to do with the need to 're-manufacture'. Cleaning is only needed for removing deposits from the bore / butterfly, or from the 'tracks' inside the potentiometers. These 'tracks' are what creates the higher or lower resistances (with rotational position) that the electronics rely upon, and can be affected by conductive 'dirt' causing incorrect resistance (and thus an incorrect signal to the ECU)at certain rotational positions by creating un-controlled resistance (or lack of resistance).

It's when the internal wiring becomes degraded (disintegrating wire insulation) that 're-manufacturing' becomes necessary, i.e. replacing the affected wires. The rest of the TB is mechanically robust and unlikely to cause problems, for instance the shafts rotate on beautiful little needle roller bearings that I would assume are likely to last effectively forever.

Some people have reported success in coating each affected wire with some sort of insulating compound (painted on?). It would depend on just where the problem occurred, some of the wiring is (somewhat) accessible, but some of each wire length disappears into the guts of the TB and is inaccessible. I think it might be possible to de-solder each individual wire at the accessible potentiometer, then slide a flexible plastic insulating sleeve over the wire length, then re-solder, but I'm sure it would be a significantly fiddly procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
In case of 95 I noticed, after cleaning[as many others indicate], the system goes into ;imp mode for transmission, and trans light along with engine light comes on. So its kinda weird that u re cleaning the TB and that leads to not being able to drive the car in reg modes of auto trans. Also it needed mech resetting of throttle cable and toothed disc connection which goes in to a limp mode....and that toothed disc's position is sensed by the electronic sensor.
I don't know why this would occur, and can't imagine the 'mechanism' that would cause it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
So.....now
1, how do I know that engine light just needs tobe reset, and there is no internal failure in the TB position sensing sytem.
Reset the ECU and see if the problem recurs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
3. What is that fluid lines, one coming to the TB and other going out of it,,,,re these ..coolant...?
The coolant lines are to heat the TB. As air passes the butterfly there is a restriction to airflow, this causes the speed of flow to increase (but the volume to decrease). As the speed of air flow increases the pressure drops, as the pressure drops the freezing point of water (humidity in the air) increases. So, water (as humidity) that condenses on the cold surfaces (butterfly and bore) can freeze more easily, causing ice deposits that can affect air flow and perhaps even jam the butterfly valve.

Heating the TB somewhat lessens the likelihood of this happening, which is only likely to happen in very cold / humid conditions (unless you live in a very cold climate it will never happen). It's probably not such a big deal with multi-point port injection, but can be with single point TB injection since evaporating fuel will be passing through the TB, which will further exacerbate temperature decrease in the TB.

Regards,
John.
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  #42  
Old 4th June 2014
Swedllander Swedllander is offline
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John...
Very thorough...indeed.

Yes Bernoulli wrote the relntshp for fluids flowing thru ducts, orifices and venturies, the mass of air/fluid going in is same as at the exit. On the way, as speed increases, pressure falls [as we see in spray bottles, the falling air pressure at venturi, allows higher pressure within the bottle to push/lift fluid upwards,,,,an everyday phenomenon]. and converse is true as well.
The Bern eqns is based on total energy being same at different cross sections, disregarding friction, whether they are small in dia or big,,,,but surely pressure fall leads to speed increase...and vice versa.I hated those fluid flow eqns....and boundary layer crap, and subsonic flows etc.
Interesting though in a venturi,,,,fluid cannot flow faster than the speed of sound[sonic]

Question....Is it that throttle body and MAF in the SAAB built together or are inseparable ?,,,,and are typically replaced together..?, and where is the idle control valve...I didnot see it !

egards

Swed/Harinder
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  #43  
Old 4th June 2014
JohnLear JohnLear is offline
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Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
PS:Mine is 2004/95, and also ve SAAB93/2001 with no such issues
My suspicion is that a number of the reliability issues associated with the 9-5 might be attributable to 'ambient' engine bay temperatures. The 9-5 at least seems to suffer from higher than average engine bay temperature (whatever 'average' is, and this is just an impression gained from how the temperature feels when I open the bonnet, and anecdotal comments from others on the same thing, I have no data to back this theory up).

This might be why the TB is (might be) less reliable on the 9-5 than on the 9-3 (if this is actually the case). Exposure over time to consistently higher temperature might cause the wire insulation to break down somewhat more quickly than might be the case with the 9-3, among other things.

A hotter engine bay is likely to be caused by poor airflow through the bay, which includes not only ease of air entering the bay but also ease of it exiting the bay. A casual glance at the 'gaps' behind the engine (to the underside of the car) certainly looks rather crowded down there, so the escape route for air leaving the bay may be somewhat restrictive compared to many other cars...?

Regards,
John.
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  #44  
Old 4th June 2014
JohnLear JohnLear is offline
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Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
but surely pressure fall leads to speed increase...and vice versa.
I thought that's what I said. Whatever, as the speed of flow increases through a restriction (as with a venturi, or around the edges of a butterfly valve, which is in principle the same phenomenon), the pressure lessens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
Question....Is it that throttle body and MAF in the SAAB built together or are inseparable ?,,,,and are typically replaced together..?, and where is the idle control valve...I didnot see it !
The TB and MAF sensor are completely separate. The MAF sensor is located prior to the turbocharger. There is nothing else incorporated into the TB, it's just a TB.

There is no idle control valve. The ECU accomplishes idle speed adjustments by means of direct changes in the butterfly opening.

Regards,
John.
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  #45  
Old 4th June 2014
JohnLear JohnLear is offline
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Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
Had the damn Black plastic rect cover removed saw a big coil and 2 screws, that were unscrewable so gave up,,,,,didnot care to see potentiometer....
Is it true for 2004/95 SAAB I wonder.
These co was better left alone to fiddle with fighter jet engines.
I do like the inbetween-seats ignition/key location.
The 'coil' is part of the motor that actually operates the butterfly valve (under ECU control), the other part is a strong magnet inside the silvery coloured barrel.

The potentiometer (one of the two, the other being hidden on the other side of the TB) is located behind the motor. Taking the motor off is the least difficult part of disassembling the TB (it's at least possible, screws might be tight, might need some penetrating oil, from memory I recall stripping the Torx heads, and had to cut a slot for a large normal screwdriver...), but unless there is a problem with the motor I don't think there is any point.

The potentiometers aren't fully sealed units like the little barrel 'pots' commonly found in other electronic gizmos. From memory I think the potentiometer is accessible enough (with the motor in place) that you can spray solvent into the sides of the potentiometer (into the gap between the visibly moving part and the body) flooding it while manipulating the butterfly shaft so that the contacts can rub off accumulated deposits from the potentiometer tracks.

Regards,
John.
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  #46  
Old 5th June 2014
david bartlett david bartlett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedllander View Post
ok so when u clnd the TB, ans say results were excellent, do you mean it didnot need remanufacturing ?.
In case of 95 I noticed, after cleaning[as many others indicate], the system goes into ;imp mode for transmission, and trans light along with engine light comes on. So its kinda weird that u re cleaning the TB and that leads to not being able to drive the car in reg modes of auto trans. Also it needed mech resetting of throttle cable and toothed disc connection which goes inot a limp mode....and that toothed disc's position is sensed by the electronic sensor.

So I ve reset the mechanics of throttle cable cam/guide and its reltn with toothed disc by wkg with that spring....that retirns the cam to idle setting.

So.....now
1, how do I know that engine light just needs tobe reset, and there is no internal failure in the TB position sensing sytem.
2, After resetting mechanically, the throttle cable/cam/toothed disc....some ssay disconnect the battery to wipe the trans light in the ECY sssystem, some say you will ve to reset the trans light[donot know if reb code analyzer can do that, like for en light]. Some ay you will have to reprogram after ,for engine light and trans light both reltd to TB unmounting, cleaning and re-installing.

3. The fluid line coming to the TB and then going out of it,,,,what re they...coolant...?

Thnx very much for the help !
PS:Mine is 2004/95, and also ve SAAB93/2001 with no such issues

\\Swed
Swedlander,

I did as John mentioned, just hosed the inside out with electronics cleaner to clean the tracks from the potentiometers. No rebuilding on my part, just cleaning.

The screws holding the electromagnet in are indeed very tight. I broke a good torx bit getting them out and had to find another to finish the job, but much cheaper than $250 exchange for a throttle body. At least for now.

Time will tell how long this holds up, but I am happy with my results.

Best, David
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  #47  
Old 27th June 2014
sekhonjatt sekhonjatt is offline
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Joining the party with you guys. I am also having similar issues with my 2003 saab 9-5 linear with 108k miles on it. However, my car doesn't idle too erratic. the surging occurs early morning when I start my car and put it into drive. When its in park or neutral then the surging goes away. Anyone have any idea whats going on? Is it my throttle body?

I could barely see my rpm fluctuate but the all the lights (interior and exterior) flicker when I stopped at a light on drive and goes away when I put into neutral(or rev my rpm). Also when I turn on the headlights or A/C the surging starts and again goes away slowly when in neutral(or when I rev my rpm).

So far I have replaced battery and negative ground battery cable. Will replacing the TB solve this surging? I love my SAAB but its driving me crazy . I would appreciate any headsup.
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  #48  
Old 27th June 2014
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Default Throttle body cleaning post

The problem with forums like this one is that owners have gone over the same problems here over and over, but since the forum is primitive in it's organization, there's no way a new poster can quickly find the section or post that relates to their issue.

Here's my post on cleaning your throttle body, scroll down for photos: https://www.saabcentral.com/forums/sh...+body+photousa

I did hear something in this post something that I had not head of before and that's reprogramming the "throttle body", (actually the ECU) to improve crappy gas mileage. I get crappy gas mileage and have trying to solve it, perhaps re-programming is one of the solutions..
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  #49  
Old 27th June 2014
sekhonjatt sekhonjatt is offline
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Originally Posted by photousa View Post
The problem with forums like this one is that owners have gone over the same problems here over and over, but since the forum is primitive in it's organization, there's no way a new poster can quickly find the section or post that relates to their issue.

Here's my post on cleaning your throttle body, scroll down for photos: https://www.saabcentral.com/forums/sh...+body+photousa

I did hear something in this post something that I had not head of before and that's reprogramming the "throttle body", (actually the ECU) to improve crappy gas mileage. I get crappy gas mileage and have trying to solve it, perhaps re-programming is one of the solutions..
Thanks for the reply. But my question was that my idle doesn't really fluctuates, its just the surge/flickering that bothers me. Although I do get pretty good gas mileage 28mpg (hwy and city combined). I just wanted to make sure its a bad TB before I start to play around with it. Now I got all of my ground wires cleaned from a dealership before. So should I go ahead with TB cleaning?
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  #50  
Old 27th June 2014
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Thanks for the reply. But my question was that my idle doesn't really fluctuates, its just the surge/flickering that bothers me. Although I do get pretty good gas mileage 28mpg (hwy and city combined). I just wanted to make sure its a bad TB before I start to play around with it. Now I got all of my ground wires cleaned from a dealership before. So should I go ahead with TB cleaning?
I had exactly your problem. It took taking off the throttle body and doing a really good cleanout as I describe in my post to clear up the issue. You have to get under the black cap and spray electrical contact cleaner between the two moving circular discs.
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  #51  
Old 27th June 2014
sekhonjatt sekhonjatt is offline
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Originally Posted by photousa View Post
I had exactly your problem. It took taking off the throttle body and doing a really good cleanout as I describe in my post to clear up the issue. You have to get under the black cap and spray electrical contact cleaner between the two moving circular discs.
I will try to clean it this weekend and see if that helps. I really appreciate your help
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  #52  
Old 27th June 2014
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Be sure to check for wires with cracked insulation. If you have cracked wire insulation, you'll need to send in in to BNA Reman.
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  #53  
Old 6th July 2014
sekhonjatt sekhonjatt is offline
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Sorry for the late reply. I was out with my family celebrating July 4th. So i pulled the throttle body out and found out that it was really clean ( i only have 109k miles on it). But another thing i noticed is that the surging still occurs but its not as prominent. So i am not sure if my surging was related with the throttle body. Now the surging happens when i put load on it ( eg. lights and A/C). But it happens every now and then, not very often (knock on the wood).

So my question is that do i need to check any ground wires for A/C since i put a new ground wires for battery?
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  #54  
Old 7th July 2014
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^^So did you NOT clean the the throttle body like photousa suggested? Just because it looks clean doesn't mean it is. The important area to clean is under the black plastic cap like he mentioned.

Good luck
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  #55  
Old 7th July 2014
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^^So did you NOT clean the the throttle body like photousa suggested? Just because it looks clean doesn't mean it is. The important area to clean is under the black plastic cap like he mentioned.

Good luck
Exactly what I was thinking Terry. The key to this problem is to get the black plastic cap off, then disassemble everything underneath until you get to the two rotating black discs. Then what you do is spray electrical contact cleaner between the two discs, effectively blowing off the residue that the "brushes" leave behind on the metal tracks. The solution worked for others and myself in solving the exact same issue.
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  #56  
Old 7th July 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photousa View Post
Exactly what I was thinking Terry. The key to this problem is to get the black plastic cap off, then disassemble everything underneath until you get to the two rotating black discs. Then what you do is spray electrical contact cleaner between the two discs, effectively blowing off the residue that the "brushes" leave behind on the metal tracks. The solution worked for others and myself in solving the exact same issue.

Unfortunately there are (1) another set of those discs on the other side, although they are white, (2) wires that feed from the white discs to the connector that are also subject to the cracked insulation and (3) impossible to get off because you have to take the throttle shaft off and the black discs are epoxy'd to it and you will break them.


If you have cracked insulation the only solution is replacement or sending off to BBA for a reman job.
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  #57  
Old 7th July 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photousa View Post
Exactly what I was thinking Terry. The key to this problem is to get the black plastic cap off, then disassemble everything underneath until you get to the two rotating black discs. Then what you do is spray electrical contact cleaner between the two discs, effectively blowing off the residue that the "brushes" leave behind on the metal tracks. The solution worked for others and myself in solving the exact same issue.
Well that was also your advice to me and it worked on my wife's sedan.
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  #58  
Old 7th July 2014
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Well that was also your advice to me and it worked on my wife's sedan.
Cool
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  #59  
Old 24th January 2017
Lori H Lori H is offline
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Default Saab "software update" fixes "throttle body" problem

I'm not sure if this is the same as "reprogramming." After months of frustration and the garage replacing the throttle body 4 times (I kept saying it must be something else but they told me I was wrong), I finally found someone who suggested it might need a "software update" which is something you can only get at a Saab Dealership (or a garage that used to be a saab dealership - in my case I went to Ira pre-owned in Exeter NH). The update cost about $150 & fixed the problem. It was too late for me to save the $500 I had already paid for a replacement throttle body but I now think it never needed that replaced in the first place.
These are the engine codes I had before the update. I don't know if they were all related to the throttle body issue but now they are all cleared and have remained clear since the software update 3 months ago:
CODE: P1260 Theft Detected Vehicle Immobilized
CODE: P0101 Mass / Volume Air Flow Circuit Range Performance
CODE: P1251 Air Mixture Solenoid Circuit Malfunction

Caveat: ever since the update, my convertible top won't work at all, but it had some issues before the update so I'm not completely sure it's related. Resolving that issue is my next project.
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  #60  
Old 24th January 2017
Windsor Windsor is offline
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Did Saab make a 9-5 convertible?
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