Let's talk about sludge! - Page 3 - SaabCentral Forums
*
Home Saab Pictures Saab Classifieds Saab Dealer Listings Saab Forum Saab Forum


Go Back   SaabCentral Forums > Saab 9-5 Mk.I, 1998-2009 > 9-5 Workshop

9-5 Workshop 9-5 Workshop (1997 to 2010) Technical Forum

SaabCentral.com is the premier Saab All Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 9th October 2005
Chris 9-5's Avatar
Chris 9-5 Chris 9-5 is offline
Saab Sage!
 
Join Date: Jun 2003                                                
Location: SaabWorld
My Saabs: .
Posts: 22,211
Default

Welcome

Regarding the oil changes, if you use fully synthetic oil and use a genuine saab oil filter (online buying is easy, try www.partsforsaabs.com ) then anyone can do the changes for you, some of us use a decent oil flush too, like FORTE.

As for a local independent, I am very poor at geography sorry Perhaps someone else can assist



__________________
I decline to grant to SAABCENTRAL.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information I submit to any public areas....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #42  
Old 10th October 2005
bernardc bernardc is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: London
My Saabs: 9-5 2.0 MY98
Posts: 232
Default Potential PCV system impact on Throttle Body

Got the odd half hour to spare? Then read on.
As EBris2 has raised this here , I think I should comment on it here in this thread.
As dug up by EBris2 from another forum, my original thoughts on the PCV system causing or contributing to the relatively high frequency of throttle body failures were:-
Its that bloody PCV system again! If you look at where the PCV exits the cam cover, the circuit separates into two, the large one going via the oil trap and the small circuit via the throttle body. This is achieved by a T-piece nipple that joins the hoses to the cam/valve/rocker cover. The orientation of the T-piece seems odd and cannot easily be changed as its fixed in position by a notch in the large circuit pipe. The small circuit connector on the T-piece points down, from an area that is perfect to drain condensed oil fumes (check how oily it is around there the next time you inspect it). From that point, there is only one place any condensed oil is going to go and that's through the check valve and on into the throttle body. As I see it, all it would take to prevent oil entering the small circuit and go where I assume it should go and on to the oil-trap is to angle the connector slightly upwards, at say 2 o'clock rather than the current 6 o'clock.
It never received any comment when I raised this elsewhere, and maybe it will not here , but for completeness I think its worth adding to this thread at this stage.
Firstly, I have not experienced a Throttle body failure. Since I made that original post, I have swapped out all the relevant pipes (they were past there best) and have been monitoring it by regular inspection for any signs of oil in the vacuum hose. So far its been OK with only slight oiliness in the hose that's prior to the check valve in the small circuit. However the car has only done about 1,000 miles since then.

On the following diagram from earlier in this thread:-



The relevant part is 6A in the above diagram. I notice that in the diagram the connector seems to be in a horizontal or three o'clock position rather than pointing down. That may just be how the diagram has been put together as many EPC diagrams do not show the correct orientation and my recent purchase of the large pipe still has the connector forced to point downwards by the notch in the pipe. Maybe the pipe has been changed and I was unlucky enough to get old stock from the dealer. It would be useful if someone with say a MY02 or later could confirm the position of the connector.

As stated, since then I have not suffered excessive oil in the vacuum pipe, but if it does get worse I have a plan. Firstly I intend to fabricate a notch in the large pipe to allow the connector to point at the 2 o'clock position. I have kept an old pipe to experiment on should I need to do this. My thoughts are that the notch should be U shaped like the original rather than just a V shape cut with a craft knife. A V shape notch may encourage a split along the pipe. A U shape could be made from an initial V shape using either a craft tool such as a Dremel or a hole punch. The original notch may need filling with something like epoxy resin and the pipe checked to see that it still makes a secure connection to the T piece.

Another option or Plan C would be to introduce a filter into the small circuit, probably just prior to the check valve. It needs to catch any oil without restricting the air flow. I think I could fabricate one from the empty shell of an old check valve combined with a large cigarette type filter, pierced several times with an awl to improve the airflow. I have recently seen improbably large cigarette filters for sale in Camden Lock market that should fit the bill .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #43  
Old 10th October 2005
StokeSaab StokeSaab is offline
Active Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Stoke-on-Trent
My Saabs: '02 95 Aero Auto
Posts: 118
Default

Thanks Chris,
Will do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #44  
Old 28th October 2005
Scandid Scandid is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: NZ
Posts: 14
Default New member intro - PCV System and more

Picked up my Saab yesterday from the Certifier, it is an import from Singapore (I live in New Zealand) The model is a 1999 2.0 LPT 9-5 Auto. Mileage 78000kms (50,000 miles) Runs very well on the trip home - 160 kms. No problems. The service history stopped at 56000kms last service almost 2 years ago. I will email the dealer in Singapore, they may have more on record.



I have been preparing for the Saab by checking out this excellent forum, which got me worried a little ..... so I'm starting some basic checks, I think the PCV system on my car has been modified - the small connection has been plugged (blue arrow) and the valve is now attached to the oil filler neck (yellow arrow). Does that mean that no oil can get into the throttle body via the valve ? What when you fill new engine oil through the filler neck, should I use a funnel to get the oil past the small hose connection ?

I have checked the hoses and they are firm, also was able to blew through them, so no blockage.



Because the service history for the last 2 years is missing, I need to investigate a number of potential problem areas and after reading the forum I may have to drop the sump to check for sludge. I probably need to change the aux. belt which looks quite complicated to access it. Is this a DIY job ? There is no cambelt to be replaced ? Internal cam chains ?

I also noticed that the heads of the screws holding the DIC cassette in place have had some use

Thanks for your help and this excellent forum.

Jim, New Zealand

Last edited by Scandid; 29th October 2005 at 12:54 AM. Reason: updates
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #45  
Old 29th October 2005
Chris 9-5's Avatar
Chris 9-5 Chris 9-5 is offline
Saab Sage!
 
Join Date: Jun 2003                                                
Location: SaabWorld
My Saabs: .
Posts: 22,211
Default

Ok that mod has been reveresed, so take the small bung off and use it to cap the connection in the filler neck, then put the pipe from the filler neck back onto the small junction you have just "un capped" on the cam cover.

The main pipe is supposed to fit into the cam cover too, have you disconnected it to take the pic?

No cambelt on the 4 cyl cars.

Aux belt is only DIY if you are pretty competent.

get a good service done, and use fully synthetic oil and a new saab filter



__________________
I decline to grant to SAABCENTRAL.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information I submit to any public areas....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #46  
Old 29th October 2005
Scandid Scandid is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: NZ
Posts: 14
Default

Thanks Chris,

Yes, I took the main hose off the cover for the photo and to check inside condition.
Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #47  
Old 3rd November 2005
Saaby's Avatar
Saaby Saaby is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2002                                                
Location: Utah
My Saabs: 1993 Saab 9000 CSE
Posts: 855
Default

Alright, if you're like me and like to learn about everything, including the intricacies of this PCV system and why it does what it does, head on over to the excellent Angry Kitchen Appliance site now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48  
Old 30th November 2005
Scandid Scandid is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: NZ
Posts: 14
Default Sump access

Many of us are not sure if they have a Sludge problem, but like to know with a bit more certainty. Dropping the sump will do that, no doubt but is there not a simpler way to check?

The sump drain plug hole is not that big but what about inserting a small camera through the hole to check it out ?

I came to this question because they had just done a similar thing to my wife, they went inside with a small camera to check her bowel

So why can't we check the bowel of our engines that way

Last edited by Scandid; 30th November 2005 at 09:01 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49  
Old 30th November 2005
Eiron's Avatar
Eiron Eiron is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2005                                                
Location: Northern Colorado
My Saabs: 2002 9≥SE
Posts: 536
Lightbulb

You can, sorta. Take a wire coat hanger & cut out the bottom & one of the corners into one very tall J. Then, bend the one corner a little farther, so that it forms a narrow shepherd's hook. Take this hook & snake it in thru the drain hole, then pull it back along the bottom of your pan. You're fishing for sludge, so see if you catch anything!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50  
Old 1st December 2005
saabnc saabnc is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2004                                                
Location: North Carolina, USA
My Saabs: 1999 9-5 2.3 SE, BSR Stage 2
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:



The hose that comes out above the "A", that the blue arrow is pointing near, if you can squeeze that at all, does it need to be replaced?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51  
Old 1st December 2005
Saaby's Avatar
Saaby Saaby is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2002                                                
Location: Utah
My Saabs: 1993 Saab 9000 CSE
Posts: 855
Default

The hose is rubber and will have some give to it, period.

If it has a little give to it, but springs right back, than you're fine. You might be able to push both sides together, but it should take a pretty firm squeeze,


If it deforms and mushes down and comes back to shape slowly, like a foam mattress topper, and you can easily push the sides into each other, it's time for replacement.



If you're not sure, it's probably fine -- but if you're worried about it, the part is only about $15.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52  
Old 19th December 2005
jsmith27 jsmith27 is offline
Active Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005                                                
Location: Ohio
My Saabs: 2002 9-5 aero
Posts: 103
Default

All the symptoms with an sludge problem sound so familiar now. I punched it at full throttle a few days ago and devolped an oil leak at the oil pan It had to be caused by a problem with the PCV system.

I am going to drop the sump and clean everything what is the part number of the oil sump intake filter that should be replaced? And what exactley should I be cleaning?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53  
Old 19th December 2005
Big Fat 95's Avatar
Big Fat 95 Big Fat 95 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005                                                
Location: Manchester, UK
My Saabs: Saab 9-5 SE 2.3t Auto (99 on an S)
Posts: 30
Default

Hi all,
I dont want to 'over-add' to this thread as its already quite a big one but I am in a predicament and it is PCV related
Ok - bit of background. I bought my 95 a few weeks ago from the auctions and got it home only to find it head gasket wasnít in tact, 500 quid later Iím back on the road. On advice from you helpful lot Iíve squidged my pipes and am most concerned. They have hairline cracks all over them and have a really weird gummy consistency when squidged. So Iím going to change them over the Christmas hols
I also read with much interest the threads about dropping the sump and cleaning it. I want to do this so I can sort of start afresh with the car and not be constantly worried. I feel dropping the sump is quite a big job but Iím willing to have a go (just wish it was a bit warmer out there!)
Anyway my questions are as follows (forgive me if they are blindingly obvious!)
Pipes:
1 The stuff Ill need to order will be as follows (1999 95)
2 fat hoses 91.88.806 + 91.86.875
1 trap 91.87.790
2 thin hoses (with a white bit in the middle!) 91.97.740 + 91.87.998
or will a dealer (or Wes at Notts Saab) know what to send me if I just tell them Iím changing my PCV hoses and trap
EDIT:: Just spotted Kermit answering this in another post
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4597231736&category=10 416&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST


2 Does the car need to be empty of oil when I change these pipes? I figure I should probably do a change straight after getting rid of them anyway

3 Should I be aiming to drop the sump and change the hoses at the same time? Will having a gunked up sump damage my new hoses if I donít do both jobs at once?

I promise to take pictures of both jobs whenever I do them and share them up here. Couldnít we start a ĎHow gunked is your sump?í picture thread?
Cheers chaps
Adam

Last edited by Big Fat 95; 19th December 2005 at 11:33 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54  
Old 19th December 2005
Chris 9-5's Avatar
Chris 9-5 Chris 9-5 is offline
Saab Sage!
 
Join Date: Jun 2003                                                
Location: SaabWorld
My Saabs: .
Posts: 22,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Fat 95
2 Does the car need to be empty of oil when I change these pipes? I figure I should probably do a change straight after getting rid of them anyway

3 Should I be aiming to drop the sump and change the hoses at the same time? Will having a gunked up sump damage my new hoses if I donít do both jobs at once?
2. No there is no oil in the PCV pipes.

3. Doesn't need to be at the same time, but dropping and cleaning the sump is the only way to get real piece of mind on the sludge issue.



__________________
I decline to grant to SAABCENTRAL.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information I submit to any public areas....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #55  
Old 1st January 2006
lambo lambo is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005                                                
Location: New Zealand
My Saabs: 9-5
Posts: 1
Default Saab 9-5 Oil Sludge - a quick, cheap fix option

Here's a 9-5 sludge fix option which I have just tried - the bad news is it may only be available in New Zealand - & possibly Austraila.

A company here has developed the technology to 100% clean engines - I've just had my Saab 9-5 (with 100,000 kms on the clock) done and it has gone from being described by my mechanic as terminal to having normal looking oil again.

(The only caveat here is I haven't had a chance to take it out to my mechanic for the official all-clear, but I've run the car for 1000 kms and the oil is still looking fine).

Anyway, these guys are in NZ & I'm not sure if they've exported any of these machines but check the website, www.edeint.com.

Oh and it cost me about $300 including fresh oil & they spent about 4 hours flushing the engine. The repair/mod kit/new engine option was going to be more like $5,000.

Sorted. All thanks to a bit of Kiwi ingenuity.

Last edited by lambo; 1st January 2006 at 04:35 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #56  
Old 1st January 2006
bkrell's Avatar
bkrell bkrell is offline
Saab on the Brain!
 
Join Date: Sep 2003                                                
Location: Louisiana
My Saabs: gone: '01 9-5 2.3t, 1997 900 SE turbo
Posts: 9,423
Default

Once again, Chuck Andrews has added some light to this sludge issue. Anyone who gets NINES needs to check out his article. When I first got my 9-5 and was worried about sludge, I remembered Chuck's articles. He blamed premature wear of the oil pump for many of the presure problems. This wear was due to sludge. Never did I hear him mention the PCV system as a culprit.

So, when I began checking out the sludge threads and saw PCV, PCV, PCV, I was befuddled. Well, his latest article answers some questions. PCV problems contribute but aren't the root according to him, it seems. A good PCV system minimizes issues, though. It seems there are MANY reasons that seemed to have just come together in the 9-5 design.

I can't go into detail on each, but...some things pointed out

  1. the "low friction" pistons increase blowby and diluting of the oil w/ fuel (fuel in oil contributes to sludge and varnish)
  2. the oil thermostat doesn't open until a much higher temp vs.the 9000 which prevents the oil from evaporating as much fuel as it could
  3. the oil pump is more fragile and subject to wear resulting from sludge
  4. Saab's long change intervals make absolutely no sense for common dino oil in this engine
  5. Proper viscosity makes a BIG difference in maintaining proper oil pressure ie there was a big difference betweeen 30 and 40 weight oils
Regarding soft PCV hoses, once the oil's additive package is depleated, it becomes very acidic. This acidic oil causes the hoses to soften as it condenses in them. And of course, once the hoses are soft enough to collapse, it's downhill!

Andrews also pointed out that you really need to flush or otherwise clean out your engine if you let the oil go and sludge does develop. He noted that he went thru 4 Mobil1 oil changes at short interval and they did NOT remove any sludge that had built up.

Another intersting tidbit, the ecessive amount of vaporized oil in the exhaust is probably the prime contributing factor to premature catalytic converter failure.

So, lets see, when I got my car, it had..a soft PCV hose and I noticed that the cat had been replaced under warranty. Well, good thing I've flushed it once already and am using auto rx as we speak!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #57  
Old 2nd January 2006
Chris 9-5's Avatar
Chris 9-5 Chris 9-5 is offline
Saab Sage!
 
Join Date: Jun 2003                                                
Location: SaabWorld
My Saabs: .
Posts: 22,211
Default

There's some great info there Brian.

Lets hope nobody ignores the "sludge" issue



__________________
I decline to grant to SAABCENTRAL.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information I submit to any public areas....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #58  
Old 2nd January 2006
Airflow's Avatar
Airflow Airflow is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004                                                
Location: United Kingdom
My Saabs: MY00 9-5 2.0t SE Airflow Auto
Posts: 270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkrell
[*]Proper viscosity makes a BIG difference in maintaining proper oil pressure ie there was a big difference betweeen 30 and 40 weight oils
Hiya bkrell - so what does this mean? Was 40 preferable to 30 in his opinion, or was it the other way around? I ask because I think Saab's own High Performance Turbo synthetic oil used to be 0w40, but is now 0w30, and the latest specification that Saab recommends (GM-LL-A025) seems to apply to 0w30 oils..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #59  
Old 2nd January 2006
bkrell's Avatar
bkrell bkrell is offline
Saab on the Brain!
 
Join Date: Sep 2003                                                
Location: Louisiana
My Saabs: gone: '01 9-5 2.3t, 1997 900 SE turbo
Posts: 9,423
Default

W/ 10W30 M1, Chuck along w/ Stephen Goldberger (who is I'd say the sharpest in the shed when it comes to saabs and oil), got the following pressure readings:

950 rpms-24 lbs. (idle)
2k rpms-39 lbs.
3k rpms-55 lbs.

Then, switching to M1 10W40:

950 rpms--27 lbs.
2k rpms-42 lbs
3k rpms-58 lbs.

Not drastic but ever bit helps. I think I'd go w/ a top notch 40 weight of some sort.

Here's a link to all Chuck's articles, including the latest. http://www.andrewsofprinceton.com/home/index.cfm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #60  
Old 2nd January 2006
Chris 9-5's Avatar
Chris 9-5 Chris 9-5 is offline
Saab Sage!
 
Join Date: Jun 2003                                                
Location: SaabWorld
My Saabs: .
Posts: 22,211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkrell
Here's a link to all Chuck's articles, including the latest. http://www.andrewsofprinceton.com/home/index.cfm
Excellent articles and very accesible too, top find!



__________________
I decline to grant to SAABCENTRAL.COM a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information I submit to any public areas....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SaabCentral Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:52 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

top of page | sitemap | email us



copyright © 2003 - 2011 saabcentral.com, All rights reserved http://www.whiter.co.uk - valid xhtml - valid css
SaabCentral is an independently run website and is not affiliated in any way to Saab Automobile AB.

vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.