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  #41  
Old 11th October 2017
qwikredline qwikredline is offline
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Everytime I read of folks going to lightened flywheels or alloy flywheels, I cringe.

Aluminum is always an issue. Mass overall at one end of the crank also.

as the timing chain is probably the single most serviced part of DOHC engine components, then reducing mass at the flywheel without a proper fluid damper at the other end, to deal with the mass reduction is just asking for trouble. Spending all that time and money on a "built" motor really needs you to consider this, Imho

http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...mper_dinan.htm
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  #42  
Old 11th October 2017
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I reject your reality and substitute my own! -Adam Savage

I will have the flywheel balanced along with the whole assembly. I know jssaab has been running a machined flywheel for a while now. It's been passed around about the effects, no one seems to have anything negative to report, there are shops online dedicated to machining weight out of stock flywheels. This only lost 6lbs
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  #43  
Old 11th October 2017
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You do what you want.
If you read what Dinan said, it should trigger something.

GM powertrain saw 900 hp from an Ecotec in 1999 for a turbo drag motor, and 400 hp from a supercharged motor in 2005. They insisted in ATI fluid dampers and warned that using a light flywheel without it, would tear up the valve drive system. Balancing the engine is a given, and has nothing to do with the ill effects of a lightened flywheel and a stock front damper.

On the forums I see more broken chain guides and bent valves than any other failure, and that includes damaged pistons. OEM damper crank pulley will lose its damper ring after long term use, sooner if the engine is buzzed and shocked in launch.

But like I said, all I do is point out to you, and other folks, what Dinan explained so well.

Hammer down on your build, look forward to the results next summer
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  #44  
Old 12th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwikredline View Post
You do what you want.
If you read what Dinan said, it should trigger something.

GM powertrain saw 900 hp from an Ecotec in 1999 for a turbo drag motor, and 400 hp from a supercharged motor in 2005. They insisted in ATI fluid dampers and warned that using a light flywheel without it, would tear up the valve drive system. Balancing the engine is a given, and has nothing to do with the ill effects of a lightened flywheel and a stock front damper.

On the forums I see more broken chain guides and bent valves than any other failure, and that includes damaged pistons. OEM damper crank pulley will lose its damper ring after long term use, sooner if the engine is buzzed and shocked in launch.

But like I said, all I do is point out to you, and other folks, what Dinan explained so well.

Hammer down on your build, look forward to the results next summer
I am diving into this a bit, but I will say our stock damper is essentially the same idea with the rubber damper design in between the outer shell and inner shell.

For the guys in the UK who have done this process over and over again, no one has come back with issues with lightening the stock flywheel. My machinist even looked at it and said no problem.

I also don't think the ecotec ATI damper will fit.
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  #45  
Old 12th October 2017
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My other thought is what if I were to use my Aero pressure plate? I heard SPEC can have failures and some of that is due down to the pressure plate. Anybody have input on that. I am already expecting a heavy clutch (I can also squat 205lbs at the gym ) but I would like to limit that a bit.
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  #46  
Old 12th October 2017
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Sachs do a number of performance clutches, the 470 n/m torque capacity of the clutch sold by Crate Engine Depot supplied by GM as a GMPP upgrade clutch with a 14 spline center section is the best value, first introduced by GM for racing Cobalts in 2005.
The Sachs performance clutches purchased on here directly from Sachs by various members have come in at 500 USD landed, as have posted on here.

The SPEC less than stellar product ( I say this advisedly both from my own experience and from others on here) is basically a Sachs pressure plate purchased/disassembled/shimmed/re-riveted/part names and identifying numbers ground out/painted blue, that often has installed height issues requiring shimming of the throwout bearing. And you pay for this misfortune.
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  #47  
Old 12th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwikredline View Post
Sachs do a number of performance clutches, the 470 n/m torque capacity of the clutch sold by Crate Engine Depot supplied by GM as a GMPP upgrade clutch with a 14 spline center section is the best value, first introduced by GM for racing Cobalts in 2005.
The Sachs performance clutches purchased on here directly from Sachs by various members have come in at 500 USD landed, as have posted on here.

The SPEC less than stellar product ( I say this advisedly both from my own experience and from others on here) is basically a Sachs pressure plate purchased/disassembled/shimmed/re-riveted/part names and identifying numbers ground out/painted blue, that often has installed height issues requiring shimming of the throwout bearing. And you pay for this misfortune.
Never knew about the GMPP Sachs clutch. That and LNF TOB upgrade too.

I found a cobalt SS guy with a stupid amount of power saying he can't even get it to slip 45,000 miles in. So I am intrigued by that. Maybe I'll put the SPEC out to pasture in favor of the GMPP Sachs one.

This the one?

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Ecot...12-P10781.aspx
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  #48  
Old 12th October 2017
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Back to the damper, ATI ecotec will more than likely not fit.

Saab runs a ~1/8"-1/4" rubber piece on the damper. I know ATI has more rubber that is also replaceable, but the Saab crank pulley is also extremely easy to replace as well.

We all want longevity and reliability in our builds, sometimes we don't always get that.
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Last edited by DrunkieTheBear; 12th October 2017 at 01:40 PM.
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  #49  
Old 12th October 2017
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Qwik...I know how to make you cringe...ZZP
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  #50  
Old 12th October 2017
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Quote:
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Qwik...I know how to make you cringe...ZZP
Why? I buy and sell with ZZP they have good prices on some stuff. THey also sell and build trash because people ask for it and want to pay for it.

ZZP are also staffed with some very competent and knowledgeable folks.

In business some folks want to buy stuff and folks in business sell it, even if its trash. Fidanza alloy flywheels, front mount chiwanese core aftercoolers, stuff like that I wont sell.

I have installed ZZP cams in an Eco s/c. Customer loves them they installed no problem, car runs strong on dyno and like crap on the street. Good customer, in this case I didn't say no.

Good luck with your build...at least install a new front damper pulley minimum for your build...
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  #51  
Old 12th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwikredline View Post
Why? I buy and sell with ZZP they have good prices on some stuff. THey also sell and build trash because people ask for it and want to pay for it.

ZZP are also staffed with some very competent and knowledgeable folks.

In business some folks want to buy stuff and folks in business sell it, even if its trash. Fidanza alloy flywheels, front mount chiwanese core aftercoolers, stuff like that I wont sell.

I have installed ZZP cams in an Eco s/c. Customer loves them they installed no problem, car runs strong on dyno and like crap on the street. Good customer, in this case I didn't say no.

Good luck with your build...at least install a new front damper pulley minimum for your build...
ZZP in the 3800 community has been well questionable. Their box tunes are meh, but the main concern are their modified for LS6 spring retainers, they seem to lock in the valve, chew them up and then drop the valve to say hello to Mr Piston.

My experience from the things I've seen, I tend to avoid them.
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  #52  
Old 12th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkieTheBear View Post
ZZP in the 3800 community has been well questionable. Their box tunes are meh, but the main concern are their modified for LS6 spring retainers, they seem to lock in the valve, chew them up and then drop the valve to say hello to Mr Piston.

My experience from the things I've seen, I tend to avoid them.
engineering stuff is an issue. I developed stuff with engineers, they don't. I have run supertech valve springs for a long time and have had issues. ALL GM springs are spintron tested. Supertechs are not. ZZP are not. In fact, I am now going back to stock valve springs in all builds. The issue of power over 7000 rpm is practically not worth even the bragging rights; bearing load at the con rod increases as the square of the rpm. So clearly you have to make choices.

its the same with crank dampers.

BTW GM saab inlet valves are 57 dollars us at the dealer each. 9 dollars Canadian from my local engine parts supplier...I have not gotten into the source,and what they are, but for sure I found 48 reasons x 8 to look into it. I also use exclusively Mahle piston rings for example. well priced. Excellent oil control. I tried the total seal oil ring stuff on my diamond forged pistons ( I still have it in one of my engines and the oil control is horrible) so you have to look at whats out there and make choices. All else fails, OEM 100% is hard to beat.
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  #53  
Old 12th October 2017
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So this is the clutch? It will work with the DMF correct? And I can use the LNF TOB?

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Ecot...12-P10781.aspx
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  #54  
Old 12th October 2017
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I have had confirmation that anything ecotec related will not work for us. The B207 guys can use it but the B235 guys can not.
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  #55  
Old 12th October 2017
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So this is the clutch? It will work with the DMF correct? And I can use the LNF TOB?

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/Ecot...12-P10781.aspx
DMF? You machined a DMF to lighten it? I have no clue if it works I suspect not but its been well covered on here I have seen many posts mostly about folks going to single mass flywheels . LNF TOB works with any F35 all day long
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  #56  
Old 12th October 2017
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Well, crap. I just got the Spec 2+ clutch. Mostly because I bought a Sachs kit for my Viggen that had a bat TO bearing right out of the box. I don't drag race or beat on it too hard so, hopefully, it holds up. Can't afford another one.
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  #57  
Old 13th October 2017
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Well, crap. I just got the Spec 2+ clutch. Mostly because I bought a Sachs kit for my Viggen that had a bat TO bearing right out of the box. I don't drag race or beat on it too hard so, hopefully, it holds up. Can't afford another one.
We can't use the SACHs clutch, otherwise there would definitely be more 9-5 guys using it (Since what I read the Cobalt guys LOVE it). We would have a clearance issue.

SPEC is hit and miss, its mainly the pressure plate that fails. I've heard of guys using the Aero pressure plate with the SPEC clutch, which I think is the same pressure plate used in the SACHs clutch kit, so I may use it (still researching it).

The SPEC clutches also tend to live a short life, some guys were doing it over again in as little as 45,000 miles. The ones that really fail are the puck ones, stay with a solid disc and you should be fine.

I guess the best I can do is run it and find out. Doing a motor swap is no picnic but once you've done a few, a clutch job doesn't seem so bad.
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  #58  
Old 13th October 2017
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As for the lightened flywheel, there is yet to be ONE single case of a B2x5/4 motor to exhibit any kind of timing chain failure due to a lightened flywheel.

Nick T has been running the Fidanza since 2010 and dragging on one too. Not one failure.
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  #59  
Old 15th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkieTheBear View Post
We can't use the SACHs clutch, otherwise there would definitely be more 9-5 guys using it (Since what I read the Cobalt guys LOVE it). We would have a clearance issue.

SPEC is hit and miss, its mainly the pressure plate that fails. I've heard of guys using the Aero pressure plate with the SPEC clutch, which I think is the same pressure plate used in the SACHs clutch kit, so I may use it (still researching it).

The SPEC clutches also tend to live a short life, some guys were doing it over again in as little as 45,000 miles. The ones that really fail are the puck ones, stay with a solid disc and you should be fine.

I guess the best I can do is run it and find out. Doing a motor swap is no picnic but once you've done a few, a clutch job doesn't seem so bad.
Please, post what you find. I'm still a few weeks out on doing the job.
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  #60  
Old 17th October 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bha280 View Post
Please, post what you find. I'm still a few weeks out on doing the job.
Avoid the 6 puck clutches, they fail.

Viggen guys were using the viggen pressure plate with anything less than 350ft/lbs it seems with some success. But I would just use the pressure plate from SPEC.

The other part is to not over clutch the car too, if you aren't going to a big turbo (past 18T lets say, 19T you could probably ride on stock clutch) then Stock Aero clutch from SACHs is the best choice.

The SACHS race engineering clutch for us 9-5 guys is gone, they no longer make it
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