How To: Transmission Fluid Change on the Aisin Warner AWTF-80SC (06+ Aero Automatic) - Page 2 - SaabCentral Forums
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  #21  
Old 25th July 2013
multistrada74 multistrada74 is offline
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ok, so here is my question now from all this reading I've done in the last few hours...if AW 1 spec is NOT the same as JS3309, then is the motorcraft fluid that you used AW1 spec ot JS3309?
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  #22  
Old 25th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Originally Posted by multistrada74 View Post
ok, so here is my question now from all this reading I've done in the last few hours...if AW 1 spec is NOT the same as JS3309, then is the motorcraft fluid that you used AW1 spec ot JS3309?
I have not found a specification for the Motorcraft fluid, other than the Ford specific spec which searching lead me to nothing.
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  #23  
Old 25th July 2013
multistrada74 multistrada74 is offline
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Originally Posted by philbar71 View Post
I have not found a specification for the Motorcraft fluid, other than the Ford specific spec which searching lead me to nothing.
it seems that the motorcraft is the same as Toyota from what I have read (so much conflicting info out there), which is the same as the mobil 1 3309. if so, we can use it. I will do some more digging tomorrow. you have some people saying that they have used full syn and it's great, some people saying that they used the mobil non-syn 3309 and it great, and then other swearing that you need to ONLY use the GM fluid. this is crazy
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  #24  
Old 25th July 2013
07g5gt 07g5gt is offline
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I just called my dealer today for my car they told me that I don't need to service the tranny till 60k im at 48k now. Il get it done around November just to be on the safe side.
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  #25  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multistrada74 View Post
it seems that the motorcraft is the same as Toyota from what I have read (so much conflicting info out there), which is the same as the mobil 1 3309. if so, we can use it. I will do some more digging tomorrow. you have some people saying that they have used full syn and it's great, some people saying that they used the mobil non-syn 3309 and it great, and then other swearing that you need to ONLY use the GM fluid. this is crazy
I honestly dont trust anything that isnt made specfically for these transmissions. Im not quite sure about the Motorcraft being the same as T-IV. Theres quite a difference in the fluids. The Motorcraft is a very slippery fluid, almost slippery like soap yet it clings to parts. When I took off the cap I was surprised to find that there was fluid stuck to the bottom of the cap. T-IV is not like that, thats more like engine oil.

Also, the Motorcraft Fluid is a very bright and semi transparent red color to it. It reminds me of very thick and slippery blood. Its certainly not like any other fluid ive seen for a transmission. T-IV is a darker red that isnt transparent, that doesnt look anything like blood.

Last edited by philbar71; 26th July 2013 at 08:44 AM.
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  #26  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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Great original post, thank you! I think there are some details to work though though...

First, I don't understand how to reconcile the fluid level differences in the two fill approaches. I used the "pump it in from the bottom" approach... which took some fussing, with the right pump and tubing bits it really wasn't that bad.

When you do it that way, you get (from memory) about 1.5 quarts out when you pull the drain tube, and you pump about that much back in.

Here, you are still pulling the drain tube to drain, but you are pumping a lot more fluid than that back in (if I was reading your description correctly). So either the pump from the bottom approach is leaving the tranny too low, or the fill from the top is putting too much fluid back in.

Then the fluid question is next. I got the GM juice, but if there is an $8 per quart Ford alternative, that's great. Even if it is a less "durable" fluid, I'd be OK with that as well, as I am changing the fluid to get junk out as much as I am to get fresh fluid in. More changing = more flushing. I'm thinking about doing a 1.5 quart swap each time I change the oil.

So great and clear post to ask the right questions to move this topic forward... thank you!
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  #27  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reepicheep View Post
Great original post, thank you! I think there are some details to work though though...

First, I don't understand how to reconcile the fluid level differences in the two fill approaches. I used the "pump it in from the bottom" approach... which took some fussing, with the right pump and tubing bits it really wasn't that bad.

When you do it that way, you get (from memory) about 1.5 quarts out when you pull the drain tube, and you pump about that much back in.

Here, you are still pulling the drain tube to drain, but you are pumping a lot more fluid than that back in (if I was reading your description correctly). So either the pump from the bottom approach is leaving the trans too low, or the fill from the top is putting too much fluid back in. Or maybe you didn't have the car level when you drained it all out thus not getting all of it out.

Then the fluid question is next. I got the GM juice, but if there is an $8 per quart Ford alternative, that's great. Even if it is a less "durable" fluid, I'd be OK with that as well, as I am changing the fluid to get junk out as much as I am to get fresh fluid in. More changing = more flushing. I'm thinking about doing a 1.5 quart swap each time I change the oil.

So great and clear post to ask the right questions to move this topic forward... thank you!
Certainly! Good questions. When I drained my trans from the drain plug on the bottom (i.e, taking out the big plug on the bottom) I got a hare over 2.5 quarts out. And I put in a hare over 2.5 quarts back in.

When you pump the fluid back in, you cant pump any more in than about a quart because the fluid will eventually spill over the drain plug/tube thing in the bottom of the trans. Unless all you did was take out the small drain plug inside of the bigger one and only got a quart and a half, that sounds like your transmission may have been over filled, because I maybe only got a quart out. I know that my transmission fluid was at the right level because it was changed at the dealer and I have a receipt showing that it only took 3 quarts. for a drain and refill.

And I can say the Ford equivalent fluid is works just as well as the GM stuff. After one flush, my transmission has been shifting great. It use to clunk a little on the downshifts because of the sticking valve body but the new fluid really helped get rid of that.

Im going to do one more drain and refill this weekend for good measure.

And for further reading, if you anyone has the patience to read all of this:

http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showth...n-fluid-change

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/en...uid_change.pdf

It appears Volvo People use T-IV. I don't know what to think about the fluid any more

Also, it looks like Volvo has changed their specs in 2012 to say only use AW1 fluid and that the T-IV fluid is no longer approved. From that same thread:
http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showth...780#post161780

Last edited by philbar71; 26th July 2013 at 09:11 AM.
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  #28  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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Great thread, here is another nice little tidbit...

From this page:
http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/90...ATRA09-RCW.pdf

Complaint:
Fluid discoloration
TCC clutch failure
Cause:
Improper fluid will not control TCC clutch slip rate and dissipate heat.
Correction: Suggested fluids
T-IV or 1161540 for Volvo
XT-8QAW-Ford
JW53309-Mazda
9986195-GM
Mobile 1, ESSO or Castrol full synthetic are aftermarket alternatives

Which backs up your Ford fluid recommendation!
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  #29  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reepicheep View Post
Great thread, here is another nice little tidbit...

From this page:
http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/90...ATRA09-RCW.pdf

Complaint:
Fluid discoloration
TCC clutch failure
Cause:
Improper fluid will not control TCC clutch slip rate and dissipate heat.
Correction: Suggested fluids
T-IV or 1161540 for Volvo
XT-8QAW-Ford
JW53309-Mazda
9986195-GM
Mobile 1, ESSO or Castrol full synthetic are aftermarket alternatives

Which backs up your Ford fluid recommendation!
Thanks for that!

It would also appear that the Volvos AWD system (with the 6spd AW trans) is very similar to the Saabs Haldex systems, so those with TurboXs may want to browse through some Volvo forums
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  #30  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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So what is the correct fluid level then?

I assumed it was the top of the inner (taller) drain tube. That when you were at the top of that, the tranny was full.

Your documented process indicates about 1 quart more than that. Which matches what you observed from the last dealer fill. And it also matches what I observed when I first cracked mine open (bought used at 46k miles and immediately changed fluid because I suspect it was original).

So "1 quart above the top of that tube" seems to be how full it is from the dealer and factory, but then why on earth do they have that tube in there made too short in the first place?
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  #31  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reepicheep View Post
So what is the correct fluid level then?

I assumed it was the top of the inner (taller) drain tube. That when you were at the top of that, the tranny was full.

Your documented process indicates about 1 quart more than that. Which matches what you observed from the last dealer fill. And it also matches what I observed when I first cracked mine open (bought used at 46k miles and immediately changed fluid because I suspect it was original).

So "1 quart above the top of that tube" seems to be how full it is from the dealer and factory, but then why on earth do they have that tube in there made too short in the first place?
That tube may not have been put there to check the level, for all we know they couldve put it there to make our lives easier when pumping fluid back in from the bottom
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  #32  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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Well that's just it, if the tube is there to check the level, it doesn't work. Unless you are trying to check and see if the tranny is 1 quart down. Then it works great.

It doesn't work to fill the tranny either, because again, it only allows you to fill the tranny to 1 quart low.

Maybe the tranny is "full" at the top of that tube according to the original design specs for the tranny, but the tranny works just as well with an extra quart in there. So when Saab (and others) tried to extend the tranny fluid change interval, they leveraged the fact that you can get an extra quart in there and get a little more fluid and a little more life. So either is fine really, but why not run the extra quart.
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  #33  
Old 26th July 2013
multistrada74 multistrada74 is offline
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good point regarding us with the haldex xwd systems (that is what my wife has). that might put an even more complicated spin to what is already confusing and complicated lol!!! I haven't read about it or even looked yet, but am I right in assuming that the transmission and xwd system are sharing fluid, or are they separate sealed units that both require different fluids?
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  #34  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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So, just to tidy up the thread....

1) Drain transmission as much as possible by removing the entire two part drain plug assembly from the bottom of the transmission (torx bolt in a hex head tube that threads into the tranny).

2) Replace drain plug and put a total of about 2.75 quarts (2.6 Liters) back into the tranny (using either fill plug or vent).

3) Repeat 3 or 4 times, driving for a while between each, to effectively "replace" all the captive fluid and flush the tranny.

Nice and easy...

Last edited by reepicheep; 26th July 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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  #35  
Old 26th July 2013
multistrada74 multistrada74 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philbar71 View Post
Certainly! Good questions. When I drained my trans from the drain plug on the bottom (i.e, taking out the big plug on the bottom) I got a hare over 2.5 quarts out. And I put in a hare over 2.5 quarts back in.

When you pump the fluid back in, you cant pump any more in than about a quart because the fluid will eventually spill over the drain plug/tube thing in the bottom of the trans. Unless all you did was take out the small drain plug inside of the bigger one and only got a quart and a half, that sounds like your transmission may have been over filled, because I maybe only got a quart out. I know that my transmission fluid was at the right level because it was changed at the dealer and I have a receipt showing that it only took 3 quarts. for a drain and refill.

And I can say the Ford equivalent fluid is works just as well as the GM stuff. After one flush, my transmission has been shifting great. It use to clunk a little on the downshifts because of the sticking valve body but the new fluid really helped get rid of that.

Im going to do one more drain and refill this weekend for good measure.

And for further reading, if you anyone has the patience to read all of this:

http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showth...n-fluid-change

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/en...uid_change.pdf

It appears Volvo People use T-IV. I don't know what to think about the fluid any more

Also, it looks like Volvo has changed their specs in 2012 to say only use AW1 fluid and that the T-IV fluid is no longer approved. From that same thread:
http://www.volvoxc.com/forums/showth...780#post161780
exactly! the Volvo people ask for t-iv which is the same thing as the mobil 3309!!! this is redic. all I know is this...i',m not spending 25-28 bucks a litre on the gm/saab stuff.
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  #36  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multistrada74 View Post
exactly! the Volvo people ask for t-iv which is the same thing as the mobil 3309!!! this is redic. all I know is this...i',m not spending 25-28 bucks a litre on the gm/saab stuff.
Just be carefull, it seems that in 2012 or so Volvo said in the owners manual to only use "AW-1" fluid... So I have no idea.

I went with the motorcraft fluid because its only $8 a quart and is specifically made for the AW 6 speed and has been used for quite a while now by ford dealers and ford owners, just search some ford forums and everyone has had success with the motorcraft fluid. I went with the motorcraft because its a sure bet it will work. The $3 difference is worth it per quart because a replacement trans new will run close to 6K installed at the dealer...

I agree tho, $25 per liter is freaking ridiculous. Thats more expensive than some nice wines!
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  #37  
Old 26th July 2013
reepicheep reepicheep is offline
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That PDF I linked also talked quite a bit about a lot of "software patching" to get the tranny to work right.

So the difference between Volvo / Ford / Saab may be how smart they made the ECM to "work around" wonky situations. Maybe Volvo made the software smart, and Saab just picked a more expensive but less fussy fluid.

How does the power of the Ford V6 motor compare to the Aero motor? That could be a factor as well. Perhaps the Ford fluid doesn't transfer heat as well, but it doesn't matter, because the transmission has a ton of margin. The Saab V6, with a turbo, is on the edge of the transmission spec and they put in better fluid to gain a little more margin.

All pure speculation of course....
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  #38  
Old 26th July 2013
philbar71 philbar71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reepicheep View Post
That PDF I linked also talked quite a bit about a lot of "software patching" to get the tranny to work right.

So the difference between Volvo / Ford / Saab may be how smart they made the ECM to "work around" wonky situations. Maybe Volvo made the software smart, and Saab just picked a more expensive but less fussy fluid.

How does the power of the Ford V6 motor compare to the Aero motor? That could be a factor as well. Perhaps the Ford fluid doesn't transfer heat as well, but it doesn't matter, because the transmission has a ton of margin. The Saab V6, with a turbo, is on the edge of the transmission spec and they put in better fluid to gain a little more margin.

All pure speculation of course....
The AW 6 speeds were used in alot of cars. The Ford 500, which had a 3L V6 with 230Ft LBS of torqe or so I think, they also had an AWD version which (surprise surprise) is based on the same Haldex AWD system used in the Saabs... Same deal with the Cross over type cars, like the Mazda CX9, used the same trans, same fluid, and same AWD system.
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  #39  
Old 26th July 2013
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dc99 dc99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reepicheep View Post
So, just to tidy up the thread....

1) Drain transmission as much as possible by removing the entire two part drain plug assembly from the bottom of the transmission (torx bolt in a hex head tube that threads into the tranny).

2) Replace drain plug and put a total of about 2.75 quarts (2.6 Liters) back into the tranny (using either fill plug or vent).

3) Repeat 3 or 4 times, driving for a while between each, to effectively "replace" all the captive fluid and flush the tranny.

Nice and easy...
I agree just did wife's trans just now. Both my and her car drained about 3 qts out first time changing. I refilled with 3 qts and all is good .
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  #40  
Old 26th July 2013
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skyeagle skyeagle is offline
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For a 2.0T 5 speed automatic transmission, what oil is recommended to use? The Ford Motorcraft XT-8-QAW Transmission fluid?

Thanks!
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