9000 / c900 big brakes [Archive] - SaabCentral Forums

: 9000 / c900 big brakes


Vince T
7th April 2006, 12:45 PM
Looks like I have a deal to sell my beater '90 SPG. Now I probably shouldn't, but I'm quite tempted to use the funds from the sale of the car towards a big brake kit.

I hope the moderators don't mind, but I'm going to cross post this to the 9k forum so as to get some more feedback. A lot of sites list big brake kits for 9ks, and not c900s, but the 9k kits should fit 88+ c900s too.

Here's what I've come up with for a little rundown, I'd like to hear from whoever has used these with any thoughts.

Parts for Saab WP Pro - for 9000
-292mm disc (a bit small, stock is what, 280mm?)
-but 6-pot calipers
-fits under standard Saab 16" wheels
-1150 GBP / US$2015

- for c900, available from genuinesaab.com or .com?
-305mm disc, redrilled from 9-3 SS Aero apparently, ie. no hat
-Brembo 4-pot calipers
-maybe not very well engineered, from what I hear from Nick Taliaferro
-cheap - 9400SEK, about US$1200
-fits standard wheels?

AP Racing - for c900, developed by Trent Saab, might still be available from them or others, maybe direct from AP but AP UK won't ship to me in Canada, could be safety regulation related
-305mm disc IIRC
-AP 4-pot, dust sealed - the best caliper?
-well engineered system
-~1300-1500 GBP
-needs larger wheels

Scanwest developed Wilwood kit - for c900
-305mm disc
-Wilwood 4-pot, but no dust seals
-fits standard wheels, looks puny beneath my 17s (test fitted on another car at SOC '04)
-US$1700
-perhaps a larger disc is available?

Matt Faulks developed Brembo kit - for c900 - is he still around?
-308mm or 325mm disc
-Brembo 4-pot
-1100 GBP for 308, 1220 GBP for 325
-needs larger wheels

Abbott's got a 308mm kit that will fit standard wheels, but uses redrilled 9-3 discs and 9-3 calipers, kinda expensive at about 1000 GBP. Not too interested in that as I want 4-pots.

Abbott's also got the 4 and 6 piston kits using AP components, but they need 18"s, and I don't want to go there, so that's not an option at this point either.

There is a shop in Oregon that has developed a big brake kit for -87 c900s, but that doesn't help me that much. Uses Wilwood calipers. Saabsavior also has a kit, but this kit doesn't impress me that much either.

I'm particularly interested to hear from anyone who's used the WP Pro kit, and also if Matt Faulks is still around selling stuff. And of course, if I've missed anything, do pipe in.

I spoke with Hi-Spec Motorsport in the UK, and they don't have anything in development. I've seen there stuff before, very cool, but I don't know if I want to get involved in development with them seeing as I'm across the ocean. But their kits would be cheaper, I think in the 7-800 GBP range. Anyone want to collaborate on development though?

BTW, my car is an '88 SPG, sitting on 17" OZ Crono Evolution wheels. Clearance for calipers shouldn't be a problem.

Matthew
7th April 2006, 05:06 PM
-Brembo 4-pot calipers
-maybe not very well engineered, from what I hear from Nick Taliaferro
Bwahahaha no, those red Brembos are terrible calipers. Awful :D

Does Taliaferro perchance sell a competing product?

Oh and don't bother buying anything from Abbott. Rip off merchants.

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spgeed
7th April 2006, 05:13 PM
If you run across a good source, I'd love to upgrade my 87. What's the concern with the wilwood, other than no dust seals, or is that enough?

Vince T
7th April 2006, 06:07 PM
My concern with the kit are a) are the pistons sized properly and b) will there by any weight savings using a large, one-piece disc?

Email me directly (not a pm) and I will email you over the -87 bbk info. vincent dot tong at gmail dot com

1oldsaabman
7th April 2006, 07:00 PM
I have the Abbott kit/APRacing kit on my SPG which does fit behind certain 17's & most 18's.

The only negatives are

1) pads are not cheap... $200+
2) pads take time to warm up thus not close to 100% power with normal driving
3) thus, a brake bias controller should be added so brakes can be properly dialed in

Not sure why 6 pot is needed, since I can lock my front end up with track tires at operating temp well above highway speeds

here's my spg with the AP brakes

http://saabpics.com:3000/gallery2/d/59012-3/DSC00945.jpg

Alex
8th April 2006, 06:20 AM
A good starting point when looking at 4 pots is the piston area of the existing calipers. 900 units have a 54mm dia piston and the 9000 units are 57mm (and though there is only 1 piston the units act effectively as if there are 2).

For a disk of around 308-325mm this leads to using pistons of around 38-40mm in the 4 pot calipers. Overall piston area can be reduced due to spacing the caliper further outwards and increasing the torque acting through the brakes.

My Princess 4 pots use for 38mm pistons which have the perfect match to the Saab master cylinder size (22.2mm dia) giving a very firm pedal feel (excellent for heel and toeing) and good progression.

The Brembo 4 pots (used on many European cars including Seat Cupra Rs, Focus RS, Fiat Coupe 20VT, Alfas, Megan Turbo 225 and available in both radial and axial mounting systems) have a pair of 38mm cylinders and a pair of 41mm cylinders, thus will give a slightly longer pedal travel than my existing brakes and a slight increase in clamping pressure for a given pedal pressure. Some American Fords also use this caliper though in a trailing configuration, fortunately it is possible to swap the caliper over to allow it to be mounted in the leading config that the Saab requires.

Next thing to consider is the pad sizing. The Princess (and Volvo 240 4pots) use a 100mm long pad which is getting marginal for a vehicle of the 900s weight. The Brembos use a 130mm pad which is a better bet for sustained fast driving.

HiSpec do two ranges of calipers which would be of interest to us, the Monster 4s and the Billet 4s. The Billets use a 100mm pad and the Monsters a 130mm one, otherwise the calipers of virtually the same. Piston sizing is identical either 4x38 or 2x38 and 2x40 and both have a choice of radial or axial mount, leading or trailing fitment. The HiSpec units are also very light at around 2.4kg per caliper. As a comparison the Brembos are around 4kg.

Final consideration is the clearance between the disk and the back of the wheel. The Brembos are around 60mm deep, HiSpec units are similar. This isn't too much of a problem on a 900 as the disk can be offset inwards by the design of the bell to give the required clearance.

ejenner
9th April 2006, 06:17 AM
Has anybody considered a 305mm disk from a Peugeot 406 3.0 v6 Coupe? The bolt-pattern is 4x108 but I'm not sure if the off-set would work well on the c900. I've been trying to find a cheap way of getting a disk from one of those cars to expiriment with (a used one is my preference because that should be free) I reckon it's a pretty good bet. Coz then you can buy performance disks that were designed for the peugeot or stock disks from a peugeot parts dealer.


http://www.hocking.euro1net.com/PeugeotPartsCatalogue/D9G/4/42A25A.HTM


http://www.hocking.euro1net.com/PeugeotPartsCatalogue/dessins/D9G/IG42A25A.png

Alex
9th April 2006, 06:55 AM
If you wanted to fit the Brembo calipers (another car using them :D ) you would still be looking at having to go with aftermarket wheels to get the clearance.

Looking at that picture of the disk the inner ventilation for the cooling is on the forward face of the bell, not the rear face as it is with the Saab disks. That would position the disk quite a long way outwards from its mounting face which again could present difficulties.

ejenner
9th April 2006, 07:05 AM
I think your right. But it's only a picture so I'm still keen to have a go with an old disk from the Peugeot dealer. (if I can get one) needn't use the callipers from the peugeot although they are brembo's so they might be worth a go.

Janne Selinummi
9th April 2006, 10:22 AM
Bwahahaha no, those red Brembos are terrible calipers. Awful :D

Does Taliaferro perchance sell a competing product?

Oh and don't bother buying anything from Abbott. Rip off merchants.

BTW, does anyone here have those brembo calipers on?
The kit is the cheapest big brake kit anyway, so it would be good to know
if the kit works well or not.

Vince T
9th April 2006, 08:51 PM
Alex, thanks for the informative post. I was aware that piston sizes have to be correctly matched to master cylinder sizes, but wasn't aware of the particulars.

Who builds the Princess based kits? Pricing on them? Only downside is that they don't look so sexy, eh?

I want to keep a stock pedal feel, for confidence and familiarity. The Hi-spec kits do sound better now. I chatted with them back at Max Power Live at the NEC in '03. They do know their stuff, but as I indicated earlier, the ocean separating me and them makes me wary about developing a kit.

Anyone out there in the UK (Alex, Matthew?) willing to lend a hand with development? I guess the thing I'm most worried about is getting supplying them with a spindle for them to match things up properly.

I dug up a spec sheet that I got from Hi-spec, but with '03 pricing. A 325mm Monster 4 kit ran around 915GBP, but including VAT.

Appreciate hearing from anyone. Gary, maybe you should try a different pad compound if you drive the car a lot on the street. Waiting for brake temps to get up won't help if you need to avoid the little kid on the corner by your house! ;)

1oldsaabman
9th April 2006, 10:10 PM
I don't really want to spend another $200 ish for pads which migh or might not perform as well on the street. I do not drive the car alot (mostly because it's always blowing something up) thus I am fine with these brakes. I figure a brake bias controller will be the best way to go

Alex
10th April 2006, 11:55 AM
Vince,

If you wanted to go down the Hi-Spec route my car could be used as I already have wheels capable of fitting the calipers. I also have a bell which has the correct offset for the disk on the car, which could be reverse engineered. Bolting holes for the actual disk would probably be different but it makes a decent starting point. As I have a bell off the car at the moment I could try measuring it up and then knock something up in ProE, or possibly UG if I can face using it.

The Princess kits are really viable any more as the calipers themselves are very difficult to find (most have already been found, removed from the original cars and used to uprate the braking on others already :D ).

I would be interested in more details on the Brembos used on the Speedparts kit (presume its the one that Genuine sell) and see if the calipers are the same as the OEM (Seat, Ford etc) units. The Brembos from Seat are 350 each, plus pads and then pad fitting kit (used to be 90 are year or so back then they put the price up :evil: ) whilst the complete Speedparts kit including mounting brackets, hoses, disks etc comes in at just over 600.

denmaster
11th April 2006, 01:08 PM
Great post Alex! I've been spending some time looking at the brakes recently...The Brembo 4 pots (used on many European cars including Seat Cupra Rs, Focus RS, Fiat Coupe 20VT, Alfas, Megan Turbo 225 and available in both radial and axial mounting systems) have a pair of 38mm cylinders and a pair of 41mm cylinders, thus will give a slightly longer pedal travel than my existing brakes and a slight increase in clamping pressure for a given pedal pressure.This is true, as our 7/8" master pump is a little small - even a Mitsubishi Galant has a 1" pump! Fortunately, adapting an alternative master pump is not difficult for our car as the servo is self sealed in the center, and thus a master pump adapted from another car which is not a perfect fit will not require changing the servo as well.Final consideration is the clearance between the disk and the back of the wheel. The Brembos are around 60mm deep, HiSpec units are similar. This isn't too much of a problem on a 900 as the disk can be offset inwards by the design of the bell to give the required clearance.We don't actually have that much room to use a rotor with a significantly taller center hat(about 10mm max from my measurements). This is because the bolt caliper bolt heads soon become close to the disc surface, unless you also increase the diameter of the disc-hat and secure the caliper (or bracket as the case may be) INSIDE the hat itself.

--lg

Alex
11th April 2006, 03:59 PM
The bolts for the bracket mount do go inside the bell/hat of the disk. I will try and measure everything up over the coming weekend.

006qees
11th April 2006, 04:40 PM
Who builds the Princess based kits? Pricing on them? Only downside is that they don't look so sexy, eh?

Nothing associated with 1970's British Leyland cars could be considered remotely sexy (Triumph Dolomite Sprint excepted).... ;)

There are a couple of sets of Princess calipers on evilBay at the moment though:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8054034378&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629871861&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

And you can get rebuild kits on there for about 20:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8050311493&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

A much cheaper route than any of the others considered - needs quite a lot more DIY-ing skill though...

84Saab900TURBO
11th April 2006, 05:20 PM
Right, so uhh, I've always wondered something. Everyone talks about upgrading to 9k rotors/calipers and whatnot but...where would you get them from without buying them new (would kinda defeat the purpose I thought)? Surely you can't get them from a scrapyard - all rusted and whatnot. I suppose it doesn't really matter to me, since I have the pre-87' brakes - or can I switch it anyway??? - but I've always kinda wondered that.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread:D.

Vince T
11th April 2006, 05:21 PM
Alex:

Thanks very much for the offer of assistance. I'm still going to investigate a few more things. I was gonna call up Hi-spec to see what the cost would be for doing up a kit.

Meantime, I've been in discussions with Precision Brake Company in Oregon - www.precisionbrakescompany.com - about some kits they have off the shelf. It's my understanding that it is actually these guys who have done up the Scanwest kits.

Unfortunately - or maybe fortunately, depending on how much of a badge hog one is - Wilwoods and Wilwood based kits (as the PBC ones are) are quite a bit cheaper than Brembos or APs, on this side of the Atlantic. Parts are easy to come by too, if necessary. Hell, I could probably get the stuff in town if need be, which I think would be quite a different story for Brembo or AP. Something to consider, anyway. Once I've got a decision on which way to go though, I'll let you know. Thanks again!

Vince T
14th April 2006, 09:21 PM
Well, I've taken the plunge. I've ordered a 325mm kit from Precision Brakes. It uses Wilwood's Forged Billet Superlite caliper. 4-pot of course, 41mm pistons. Here's a link to the caliper: http://wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/012-FSL/index.asp

Alex, thanks very much for the offer of help. It's much easier on me to buy a kit off the shelf than to develop one with Hi-Spec. I actually think Damien Shulock developed the 325mm kit with PBC. PBC tells me the piston size should be fine with the stock MC, and there's a bit of adjustment on them too.

On another note, I just did the real calipers on my 99 rallycar - rebuilt stock 900 stuff, with new discs. On the front I've been running Wilwood Superlites too, older ones. The pedal feel just wasn't there before, but now with the new rear calipers, it feels great. The old rear calipers were much more bagged than I thought.

Gary - I had another thought about your pad/brake temp issue. While pads might be $200ish, I'm sure it would be easier than mucking around with the stock brake lines to plumb in a bias adjuster. You do know that the stock brake circuits are diagonal? You'd have to plumb in two adjusters if you retain the stock circuits, otherwise you'd need to rejig all of the lines to have separate front-rear circuits. I had to do this on my rallycar, it was a big pain. I ended up fabricating all of my own brake hardlines. Whatever, just my thoughts.

Anyway, I hope to see the kit from PBC in 3-4 weeks, should be cool. No way of going back to factory 16"s now... ;)

1oldsaabman
15th April 2006, 12:39 AM
thanks for the heads up.... I had no clue :( I was talking with my mechanic last summer about the brake issues & when he took my car out for a spin he also noticed how the bias was thus he mentioned a bias controller. He stated it would be pretty easy to do so when we are swapping my trans in hopefully a week or so I will bug him about it then :)

It's also been 3-4 years since I purchased my pads & I think there is a really good chance that I could find a set of new pads which are not as agressive as what mine are.

Alex
15th April 2006, 07:56 AM
Precision Brakes do quite a wide range of different kits for the 900. Do you know if the Wilwood calipers that they use are dust sealed or not? Looking at their range at the Autosport show this year some of the calipers are sealed and some are not.

Vince T
16th April 2006, 12:34 AM
I don't think they're dust sealed, actually, which is unfortunate, but I'll live with it. My SPG doesn't see any winter use anymore, just nice tarmac. And since December, I've been driving an '02 MINI Cooper S for a daily driver, so the SPG won't see as much use as before.

V. excited. I'll be sure to post when I have them installed. I'm also going to do some baseline testing with my 9k calipers, and then afterwards again with the Wilwoods. A friend of mine is an engineer who does accident reconstruction, and they have a crazy expensive 'black box' that does all the stuff a G-Tech does, but for professional use.

spgeed
16th April 2006, 12:39 AM
My concern with the kit are a) are the pistons sized properly and b) will there by any weight savings using a large, one-piece disc?

Email me directly (not a pm) and I will email you over the -87 bbk info. vincent dot tong at gmail dot com

V,
Sent you an email about the above, maybe It went to your junk folder?
sdesignllc at comcast dot net

Vince T
16th April 2006, 11:01 AM
Bruce, sent you an email back.

Alex
18th April 2006, 12:35 PM
More information concerning the different calipers. The Seat Leon and Ibiza actually use slightly different units. The basic body, pistons and pads are the same, but whereas the Leon has an external fluid transfer pipe and two bleed nipples the Ibiza unit is internally connected and has just one bleed nipple. The feed pipe position is also slightly different between the two. The Ibiza unit would also appear to be slightly cheaper new as well.