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  #1  
Old 23rd June 2006
Duncan9-5 Duncan9-5 is offline
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Default Another idea on how to go faster

Just been looking through some of my old tuning manuals and one of them is a guide to installing nitrous oxide to modern engines, so my question is do you guys think the Saab's engine can take this sort of punishment I'm only thinking of maybe 50 bhp blasts (for the odd traffic light grand prix) and also what are the chances of the tronic throwing a fit. But if it is do'able maybe use it with a micro switch on the loud pedal so when it's on full throttle you get a short blast.

Anyway any advice welcome as I doubt I'll actualy do this but I'm a bit bored but it would be intresting
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  #2  
Old 23rd June 2006
Z28Hokie Z28Hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan9-5
Just been looking through some of my old tuning manuals and one of them is a guide to installing nitrous oxide to modern engines, so my question is do you guys think the Saab's engine can take this sort of punishment I'm only thinking of maybe 50 bhp blasts (for the odd traffic light grand prix) and also what are the chances of the tronic throwing a fit. But if it is do'able maybe use it with a micro switch on the loud pedal so when it's on full throttle you get a short blast.

Anyway any advice welcome as I doubt I'll actualy do this but I'm a bit bored but it would be intresting
I think the biggest issue you would have would be Trionic seeing some "unexplainable" difference between the MAF readings and the Combustion measurements it does and then freaking out.

Now if you were to spray a "dry" shot before the MAF it would be a different story, what I don't know is if this is possible on a turbo car- that's some VERY cold air rushing into a hot turbo- could pose a problem. If it was possible all you'd have to do is make sure you sprayed a small enough shot that it would still be within bounds of what your computer can measure and that your fuel system can dump enough fuel for it.
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Old 23rd June 2006
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Raven18940 Raven18940 is offline
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If you only sprayed at full throttle and if you used a seperate fuel injector for the added fuel needed it should work. People have upwards of 300 hp reliably on the 2.0L so if should take the abuse provided you do your part and don't fubar the A/F ratio. I'd have the fuel and nitrous spraying as close to the throttle plate as you can setup. Actually that would create a metered air difference wouldn't it. Maybe spray the nitrous in front of the MAF and the fuel on top of the throttle.

Last edited by Raven18940; 23rd June 2006 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 23rd June 2006
Z28Hokie Z28Hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven18940
If you only sprayed at full throttle and if you used a seperate fuel injector for the added fuel needed it should work. People have upwards of 300 hp reliably on the 2.0L so if should take the abuse provided you do your part and don't fubar the A/F ratio. I'd have the fuel and nitrous spraying as close to the throttle plate as you can setup. Actually that would create a metered air difference wouldn't it. Maybe spray the nitrous in front of the MAF and the fuel on top of the throttle.
If you spray the N2O before the MAF you don't need the spare injector. The computer will read the supercool/denser air and add fuel automatically. You just need to make sure your computer/fuel system is up to the task. This is why you can run a lot less of a dry shot than a wet shot. It's also why dry shots are so cheap.
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Old 25th June 2006
Duncan9-5 Duncan9-5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28Hokie
If you spray the N2O before the MAF you don't need the spare injector. The computer will read the supercool/denser air and add fuel automatically. You just need to make sure your computer/fuel system is up to the task. This is why you can run a lot less of a dry shot than a wet shot. It's also why dry shots are so cheap.
So do you think a my Nordic stage 2 is going to allow enough fuel or is this something a custom tune when I go stage 3 will be sortable. Damb I love Saab's but why do they have to be so bloody complicated, it's like relearning everything I thought I knew about tuning

Anyway thanks for the replys guys I hadn't thought of dry shots to be honest, trust me to over complicate things.

Duncan
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Old 26th June 2006
Z28Hokie Z28Hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan9-5
So do you think a my Nordic stage 2 is going to allow enough fuel or is this something a custom tune when I go stage 3 will be sortable. Damb I love Saab's but why do they have to be so bloody complicated, it's like relearning everything I thought I knew about tuning

Anyway thanks for the replys guys I hadn't thought of dry shots to be honest, trust me to over complicate things.

Duncan
I think the biggest question before even considering fuel is: Is it safe to use a dry shot on a turbo vehicle?

My guess is the VERY cold charge would be VERY bad when it comes into contact with the very hot turbo.

Also- with a tuned car I probably wouldn't risk it unless you were to upgrade your fuel system and get a custom tune. Those injectors and pump might already be working hard to keep up with the tune itself- the N2O could just be too much.
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Old 26th June 2006
Duncan9-5 Duncan9-5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28Hokie
I think the biggest question before even considering fuel is: Is it safe to use a dry shot on a turbo vehicle?

My guess is the VERY cold charge would be VERY bad when it comes into contact with the very hot turbo.

Also- with a tuned car I probably wouldn't risk it unless you were to upgrade your fuel system and get a custom tune. Those injectors and pump might already be working hard to keep up with the tune itself- the N2O could just be too much.
Yeah my fears too, lucks like I'm going to have to do some research and talk to some N2O installers. Thanks your help so far,

Duncan.
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Old 26th June 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan9-5
Yeah my fears too, lucks like I'm going to have to do some research and talk to some N2O installers. Thanks your help so far,

Duncan.
Just remember, if you spray under WOT the car has no idea what's going on with the A/F ratio. It runs rich stock and a little n2o will lean it out nicely and boost power a lot, but if you really push you can't count on the stock fuel system for anything.
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Old 26th June 2006
Z28Hokie Z28Hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven18940
Just remember, if you spray under WOT the car has no idea what's going on with the A/F ratio. It runs rich stock and a little n2o will lean it out nicely and boost power a lot, but if you really push you can't count on the stock fuel system for anything.
Actually you won't see any leaning effect at WOT unless the fuel system can't keep up. The computer will still take the MAF input, compare against a table- and add the corresponding amount of fuel (there are a lot of adjustments to this, but that's the fundamentals).

I'm going to guess that since our cars have a MAP sensor it probably is there primarily for fault checking and is not a primary input into fuel metering.
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Old 26th June 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28Hokie
Actually you won't see any leaning effect at WOT unless the fuel system can't keep up. The computer will still take the MAF input, compare against a table- and add the corresponding amount of fuel (there are a lot of adjustments to this, but that's the fundamentals).
I know, but n2o, once in the combustion chamber, has much richer oxygen content than normal air. The MAF only reads flow, has no idea what kind of air you're pulling in.
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Old 26th June 2006
Z28Hokie Z28Hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven18940
I know, but n2o, once in the combustion chamber, has much richer oxygen content than normal air. The MAF only reads flow, has no idea what kind of air you're pulling in.
The N2O increases the density of the air traveling through the intake system, this higher flow will get picked up by the MAF.

That's also why you can only spray "so much" of a dry shot even if your fuel system is up to the challenge. The MAF can only read so much airflow before it goes outside of what is charted in the computer.
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  #12  
Old 27th June 2006
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Recently I met up with Kermit, his car is now standard, (engine wise) but has the full eibach pro suspension kit, and that really made a difference to speed, faster into and out of bends, level braking, excellent.

So in the quest to go faster, decent suspension would be a really good idea too
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Old 27th June 2006
Eirian Eirian is offline
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one of the problem with n20 is that when it combusts it also produces oxygen. there are kits about for the 9-5.

if you ran a solenoid valve with the correct fuel added after the turbo/intercooler just before the trottel body i cant see there being a problem except for maybe the ecu going a bit mental due to the lamda reading.

Eirian
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Old 27th June 2006
Duncan9-5 Duncan9-5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 9-5
Recently I met up with Kermit, his car is now standard, (engine wise) but has the full eibach pro suspension kit, and that really made a difference to speed, faster into and out of bends, level braking, excellent.

So in the quest to go faster, decent suspension would be a really good idea too
I have the same suspention just looking at alternatives after I fit the race cat and custum Nordic tune (when funds alow currently stage 2 with a TD04) I know maybe a bit too far but just seeking advice, I can't realy ask any questions on the NOS forums as none of the guys on those sites quite understand Saabs so it's just a case of getting as much information as I can then choosing the best option. I understand the basic operating of the Tronic 7 (completly different to every other system) and N2O installs but have no idea what will happen when the two are combined as it seems a wet shot won't work and I have never realy looked into dry shots as this is not the norm anymore, but it is looking as if I go ahead with N2O I am going to have to visit a dyno man on a regular basis to check everything is in order or I might end up with needing new pistons, but that will meen Forge ones so it might be worth eating them up just so I can justify the spend.
But I have found this system that looks promising so long as I can combat the cold air/hot turbo problem and fueling http://www.holley.com/16034NOS.asp so I might be able to do it but I might just bottle it as I am not sure I realy want a dead car in the garage.

Duncan.
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  #15  
Old 27th June 2006
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Raven18940 Raven18940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28Hokie
The N2O increases the density of the air traveling through the intake system, this higher flow will get picked up by the MAF.
Well yeah, but the reason we use N2O to go faster is because in the extreme heat and pressure of the combustion chamber it splits up into nitrogen and oxygen, thus richening the oxygen content on the fuel mixture.
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