Port and polish worth something??? - SaabCentral Forums
*
Home Saab Pictures Saab Classifieds Saab Dealer Listings Saab Forum Saab Forum


Go Back   SaabCentral Forums > Saab NG900, 1994-1998 and OG9-3, 1999-2002 & '03 Convertible (NG=new gen/OG=old gen) > NG900 & OG9-3 Performance, Mods & Tuning

NG900 & OG9-3 Performance, Mods & Tuning Covers Tuning & Performance modifications for the NG900 (1994 to 1998) & OG9-3 (1999-2002) & '03 Convertible

SaabCentral.com is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 25th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default Port and polish worth something? Gain 20whp&30wtrq

Here is the before and after on the dyno. The after is with the porting of the exhaust manifold and the turbo housings and Nicks new intake pipe. I have too much air now and will have to get another ecu most likely, the mixture is on the lean side again, I just can't leave well enough alone. Darn, now I know why a custom tune is so valuable in high hp applications.... I just found out I got some bad gas from the small station in Berthod and its 93 octane... It was stuttering on the dyno and on the way home, topped it off with Shell 91 and the miss and stuttering went away. Just my luck, now I have to dyno all over again... I think the mixture is acurate anyway. Mr. rich ecu going back in for the next test. There was snow and temps in the 30's today. I gained 20whp and 30wtrq by the end, but the a/f is a little lean.
John

Last edited by John Z Williams; 26th April 2006 at 12:25 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 25th April 2006
lms's Avatar
lms lms is online now
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005                                                
Location: United States
Posts: 3,407
Default

Well the curves are all messed up now, but it looks like you gained hp.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 26th April 2006
SaabinNH's Avatar
SaabinNH SaabinNH is offline
Active Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005                                                
Location: New Hampshire
My Saabs: 1996 900 SET
Posts: 58
Default

JZW, I like what you did, and I know that i am going to go with Nick's intake pipe also, it looks clean and you don't have to worry about silicone elbows and such. Did he make a special application just for your JSP T25/T28 beast special?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 26th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Thanks, yea Nick made a custom t25 intake pipe for me and made it as big as possible. Its much larger on the inlet side and a little larger on the outlet side. I kind of wish I had found a 9000 t25 turbo core to make the housings from for my t28/gt28r turbo. The 9000 t25 has a 6cm exhaust housing and a 2" id for the compressor side housing. My stock t25 inlet side compressor housing is only slightly larger than the stock 1.75" id. That extra 1/4" id could make a big difference in top end flow. I might lose some spool-up time though, its always a trade off, good spool to good power. Finding that perfect compromise is the key to a good spooling system. The largest plus in this whole entire porting deal is the smooth transistion from no boost to boost. It really smoothed it out and the power is so smooth my dyno driver said wow, the steering wheel does not shake or shimmy at all, you really made it transistion smoothly. It feels smoother all around.... Now what about that intake side??? hhhhmmmmmm

JZW
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 26th April 2006
mike saunders's Avatar
mike saunders mike saunders is offline
Saabista
 
Join Date: Dec 2003                                                
Location: Boston
My Saabs: Tuned NG900, stock 99 9-5
Posts: 11,140
Default

John,

You did a port and polish of the exhaust side, and altered the intake side, so you really don't know which helped you, or to what degree. There are too many variables to determine a direct cause and effect.The port and polish might have only yielded 1 hp, and the intake pipe the other 29.

Or vice versa.

But the fact that the A/F has changed is a strong clue that the intake change might have had the biggest effect.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 26th April 2006
hunt.dogshome's Avatar
hunt.dogshome hunt.dogshome is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2004                                                
Location: UK
My Saabs: 9-5 Diesel
Posts: 2,403
Default

Keep up the good work John!


P.S. There is some interesting reading here about turbo inlet pipes - see test 5 and below. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=462807
__________________
肉(rņu)包(bāo)子(zi)打(dǎ)狗(gǒu) (meat+bun(2nd and 3rd)+hit+dog)
* Literally: To hit a dog with a meat-bun.:-O

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 26th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Yea, I thought about that and you are right, there is no way to know for sure which change had the greatest effect, but after talking to some tuners and racers at the dyno shop, they convinced me its mostly from the porting/polishing. The intake pipe is only 2mm larger than the stock one

It is actually smaller for a longer period, the last 3" of the intake pipe is 1.75id
the stock pipe is 2"id all the way to the very end or the last 1" or so, it goes down to a 1.75id.

The only way to know for sure is pull the new pipe off and put the stock one back on and try it again. That would tell more of the story and let me know if its mostly the pipe or mostly the porting or half and half or whatever it is. What I do know is the smooth transistion from no boost to boost is from the porting as this is the most common reason to have the head ported/polished, its about drivability more than the 10hp gain you may see. That is what makes me smile the most, the nice smooth transistion....
John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 26th April 2006
mike saunders's Avatar
mike saunders mike saunders is offline
Saabista
 
Join Date: Dec 2003                                                
Location: Boston
My Saabs: Tuned NG900, stock 99 9-5
Posts: 11,140
Default

Exhaust side changes generally help spool-up, so it makes sense that you're seeing a quicker and more linear boost transition...

Hunt, that was a pretty interesting and thorough series of tests. That's the type of detailed analysis that generates serious data. The surge issue is one that I see at low rpms with my 16T, using a K&N panel and a 2.5 inch intake from filter to turbo. The spool-up is extremely quick -- about 2200-2500 rpm -- but unless I'm pushing it, I hear the fuff-fuff-fuff-fuff of compressor surge when I let off the gas. Doesn;t happen often, though, so I'm not worried about it...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 26th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Yea, that was a lot of great information hunt! I too see some surging on occasion, its when I start to boost and then let off it will puff, puff, puff...

I was lead to believe that can be adjusted with your bov spring rate. I have reduced mine from all the time to almost never with less spring pressure...
John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 26th April 2006
CO-Saab CO-Saab is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jul 2003                                                
Location: Colorado, USA
My Saabs: Stage Retarded 9-3
Posts: 350
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Now what about that intake side??? hhhhmmmmmm
John, See me
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 26th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Thanks a lot, that is great information. I would like to discuss some of the issues I am having with my car and the a/f and power and would like to know if you are up to some questions from me? How should I communicate? email, pms?

Great work on your polish job, very smooth and clean! Sure looks like a lot of work to get that intake pipe to fit on the gt2871 turbo in the stock location.
That compressor outlet looked awesome, I did not go that far as I was told to watch out and not get the compressor outlet too thin and compromose the strength of it... Thanks again,
John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 26th April 2006
CO-Saab CO-Saab is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jul 2003                                                
Location: Colorado, USA
My Saabs: Stage Retarded 9-3
Posts: 350
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
I would like to discuss some of the issues I am having with my car and the a/f and power and would like to know if you are up to some questions from me? How should I communicate? email, pms?
Let's here them. If it gets too off topic we'll take it eslewhere, but everyone tends to benefit from these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Great work on your polish job, very smooth and clean!
I'll be honest, I got real fed up going through so many bits and getting nowhere. Some of those required professional grade silly-putty to finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Sure looks like a lot of work to get that intake pipe to fit on the gt2871 turbo in the stock location.
Way way too much time effort/cutting/fitting/welding/wash/rinse/repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
That compressor outlet looked awesome, I did not go that far as I was told to watch out and not get the compressor outlet too thin and compromose the strength of it... Thanks again,
John
That's one thing I didn't touch for the same reason. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Unfortunatly, that site has lots of stuff that was many many revisions ago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 26th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Ok, one question is at what point would you say its too lean of an a/f mixture?

I go up from 11.5/1 to 12.8/1 between 4000rpm and 5000rpm, then I start to fall and am at 11.1/1 by 6000rpm. I am thinking this is still too lean and although the power feels strong, you can see that the power curve line falls off right at the point were it gets close to 13/1. The dyno shop tech felt the a/f was the reason and I needed to get it back down to 11.5/1 no matter what. I wanted a second opinion for fi cars. What is considered the optimal a/f for our cars and would you say its really not safe to hammer my car with it being close to 13/1???

Second question is have you had a dyno done in Denver since your mods and turbo upgrades. I would be interested to hear how your car does on the dyno with the gt2871 turbo???

Third question you answered somewhat. How much trouble is it to get the inlet pipe to fit on the gt2871 turbo with stock manifold? Is there an adaptor plate to help with that and what would have to be done to make the exhaust side fit my existing 3 bolt pattern down pipe? Is there an adaptor to make it fit my existing dp that I have now? Where can I find some of these v-band adaptors that may enable me to use the gt2871 turbo with my stock exhaust manifold???

Thanks for any help you can be on these issues with my car. In your opinion, how does that power/torque curve graph look to you? I had some bad gas, do you think that could be part of the up and down of the power curve??? It stumbled bad on the first dyno run and did it after I left the shop, I filled up with Shell gas and the missing went away...?
John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 26th April 2006
CO-Saab CO-Saab is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jul 2003                                                
Location: Colorado, USA
My Saabs: Stage Retarded 9-3
Posts: 350
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Ok, one question is at what point would you say its too lean of an a/f mixture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams

I go up from 11.5/1 to 12.8/1 between 4000rpm and 5000rpm, then I start to fall and am at 11.1/1 by 6000rpm. I am thinking this is still too lean and although the power feels strong, you can see that the power curve line falls off right at the point were it gets close to 13/1. The dyno shop tech felt the a/f was the reason and I needed to get it back down to 11.5/1 no matter what. I wanted a second opinion for fi cars. What is considered the optimal a/f for our cars and would you say its really not safe to hammer my car with it being close to 13/1???

Second question is have you had a dyno done in Denver since your mods and turbo upgrades. I would be interested to hear how your car does on the dyno with the gt2871 turbo???


Third question you answered somewhat. How much trouble is it to get the inlet pipe to fit on the gt2871 turbo with stock manifold? Is there an adaptor plate to help with that and what would have to be done to make the exhaust side fit my existing 3 bolt pattern down pipe? Is there an adaptor to make it fit my existing dp that I have now? Where can I find some of these v-band adaptors that may enable me to use the gt2871 turbo with my stock exhaust manifold???


Thanks for any help you can be on these issues with my car. In your opinion, how does that power/torque curve graph look to you? I had some bad gas, do you think that could be part of the up and down of the power curve??? It stumbled bad on the first dyno run and did it after I left the shop, I filled up with Shell gas and the missing went away...?

John



I just received the proverbial turd in the inbox. I have to get this taken care of ASAP, if I have time I'll give you a full reply later this evening.


Basically A/F perfect = 12. 11.3-12.7 are OK, but I'd much rather run rich than lean.


Dyno's yes and no (yes after mods, no after GT2871R)


Under no circumstances should you put a GT2871R in the stock location, or you won't have any dyno's ;-)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 26th April 2006
lms's Avatar
lms lms is online now
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Sep 2005                                                
Location: United States
Posts: 3,407
Default

Hunt-Great link. Now children, what Have we learned if we read that thread? Open end intakes suck "hot air". Also, don't go throwing that stock air box away. I subscribe to autospeed online mag and they also have a great write-up on stock air filter setups-the bigger the better. As Mike pointed out and others, a K&N drop in filter will give you more HP, but at a cost to your engine if your not cleaning the filter every 1000 miles or so. I think I'm going to try the drop in filter route, but add some form of a secondary screen/foam setup off the suction pipe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #16  
Old 26th April 2006
CO-Saab CO-Saab is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Jul 2003                                                
Location: Colorado, USA
My Saabs: Stage Retarded 9-3
Posts: 350
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Ok, one question is at what point would you say its too lean of an a/f mixture?
Anything over 13.7:1 is too lean, thats what I have been told for a FI car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
What is considered the optimal a/f for our cars and would you say its really not safe to hammer my car with it being close to 13/1???
Like said 12.0:1 is optimal. Much less than 11.0:1 is too rich. The down side to too rich is poor fuel consumption and increased carbon monoxide emissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Second question is have you had a dyno done in Denver since your mods and turbo upgrades. I would be interested to hear how your car does on the dyno with the gt2871 turbo???
I've dyno'd a few times at various stages, not after the GT2871R mainly because I can't boost past 1.4 Bar in the mid range without serious surge. I've run the car dead-nuts (wastegate closed) and it will get past the surge issues in gear 3 with only a small hiccup at ~4K RPM. Gear four the hicup is longer and more difficult to "power through." No idea about gear 5 as that is approaching 125-140 MPH. Dead nuts it'll boost to ~1.85 BAR and hold steady. I've said it before, but there is no need for this kind of power on the streets. Even at 90-100 MPH the car wiggle-waggles all over the (track) when on full boost, I can light the tires at 75 MPH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Third question you answered somewhat. How much trouble is it to get the inlet pipe to fit on the gt2871 turbo with stock manifold?
With my set up there is no inlet pipe. I've welded a very custom aluminum cone-elbow on the compressor housing. see below. There really is no room for a turbo this size. I was stuck on trying to find the best bolt-on for our cars possible as I was trying to bring it to market. That bill is filled by JAK's Big T28. I've not ruled my solution out, but I think it's best to rule out the bugs before I say go either way. If i only have a software issue then all is good. Everyone will know if this takes place.





Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Is there an adaptor plate to help with that and what would have to be done to make the exhaust side fit my existing 3 bolt pattern down pipe? Is there an adaptor to make it fit my existing dp that I have now?
I have two, unknown to me, but these things apparently don't exists. We've called all kinds of people including Garrett and they don't have a p/n for them. See what I mean?



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
Where can I find some of these v-band adaptors that may enable me to use the gt2871 turbo with my stock exhaust manifold???
You can call ATPturbo. However, I would highly highly highly (get the idea?) recommend you don't go this route. This turbo requires a better intake than what I'm using. A 4" necked down to 3" is what I'd recommend. There is exactaly zero additional room for this. Get a new manifold that positions the turbo closer to the battery, allows for a nice 3" elbow for the intake. This will require a new custom manifold, downpipe, and intake. After all the work I put into the manifold and DP I didn't want to have to redo, especially trying to establish the ultimate bolt-on turbo kit.



Here are some shots of the compressor housing pre me toying with it, and how much room there was (none). Note the AC housing is about even with the shaft.





Quote:
Originally Posted by John Z Williams
In your opinion, how does that power/torque curve graph look to you?
I really like the pre porting curves. I'm sure you'll be able to get this setup figured out. The first dyno you posted way back when was garbage, the power fell above 5500 RPM and I really didn't like the TQ spike mid range. I'm sure it felt fast, but traction is a royal PITA with a spike like that. No idea what was causing your notchy curves this time. Bad RPM sensor/reading (?)

I hope some of this helps. I'm sure some of it is not what you want to hear, but these are my thoughts/feelings/findings. They may change when I have the time to mess around. Ski season is almost over (only two more weeks) and then I get my Sunday's back.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #17  
Old 27th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

Thank you very much for all your help on this matter. I really appreciate all the pictures and advice to this larger turbo. I will have to admit that I have never had the time or money to play with a tuner car and spinning the wheels at 75mph sounds like fun to me. Like you said, it does not help the speed of the car and it will get old fast and then what? I do not want to ruin my tires evey 2 months and have my tranny snap and have to do a big expensive clutch that I will surely need, then the new manifold, then the new turbo, then the new inlet pipe then all the fabrication of the oil/coolant lines, then the time and frustration to install it all... That would be at least 3000 bucks... Shoot, I might as well get down and dirty and shoot a 50-75 shot of nitrous and then I could keep the decent spool up of my turbo and then have the extra 50-75bhp on occasion whenever I get the need for speed
I think I could do a wet shot of nitrous for about 500-600 bucks including an additional fuel pump to re-route the return line back into the throttle body, then mix fuel and nitrous there and get an even atomizing mix into the intake manifold. One problem is if you are too close to the manifold it most will get sucked into the first runner and cylinder 4 or 1? then leave little for the rest of the cylinders. This sound very dangerous and having most of a 50 shot going into one cylinder would be catastrophic
Thanks again,
John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18  
Old 27th April 2006
mike saunders's Avatar
mike saunders mike saunders is offline
Saabista
 
Join Date: Dec 2003                                                
Location: Boston
My Saabs: Tuned NG900, stock 99 9-5
Posts: 11,140
Default

Quote:
Shoot, I might as well get down and dirty and shoot a 50-75 shot of nitrous and then I could keep the decent spool up of my turbo and then have the extra 50-75bhp on occasion whenever I get the need for speed
I think I could do a wet shot of nitrous for about 500-600 bucks including an additional fuel pump to re-route the return line back into the throttle body, then mix fuel and nitrous there and get an even atomizing mix into the intake manifold. One problem is if you are too close to the manifold it most will get sucked into the first runner and cylinder 4 or 1? then leave little for the rest of the cylinders. This sound very dangerous and having most of a 50 shot going into one cylinder would be catastrophic
Thanks again,
John
Switch to a T7 intake manifold. It's significantly larger overall, with bigger intake runners that taper down to fit the head. Most importantly, it uses a diffuser to ensure equal distribution of air. Only thing you'd need to do is to make an adapter plate of phenolic plastic to use your T5 throttle body

Put the wet shot nozzle in the throttle-body intake elbow and you shouldn't have a problem.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19  
Old 27th April 2006
John Z Williams John Z Williams is offline
Vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005                                                
Location: Boulder Colorado
My Saabs: JZWTUNING.COM 10 Sec Saabs
Posts: 4,835
Default

I was not aware of that, the t7 is much larger? That would surely help things with the boost pressures I am running and then again with the diffuser to even up the air mix... I got one for you... I had some missing on the dyno, I checked it last night, the plugs are shot again, they are bad. I looked into the holes with a light and looked at the top of the pistons... Pistons 1 and 3 were clean as a whistle, I could read the numbers on top and they were silver. Pistons 2 and 4 were black with loads of carbon built up on them. Any thoughts as to why two would be so clean and the other two be so dirty? I mean I could see what looked like chuncks of carbon built up, I tried to blow out with compressed air, but its on there... I guess when I pull the head, I will clean them then, is this blow by from bad piston rings or maybe my lean mixture causing carbon build up and if so, why half the motor???

John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20  
Old 27th April 2006
mike saunders's Avatar
mike saunders mike saunders is offline
Saabista
 
Join Date: Dec 2003                                                
Location: Boston
My Saabs: Tuned NG900, stock 99 9-5
Posts: 11,140
Default

The central air chamber AND the individual runners are bigger on the T7 manifold. That's one of the reasons the T7 head flows better than the T5. You'd need to do some minor modifications to get your T5 fuel rail to fit, and that adapter plate I mentioned.

Dunno about the odd difference in carbon buildup. That's pretty odd to see such a difference, because you'd usually see an even carbon buildup (dry, kind of sooty or flaky) if you were running really rich for a while. An uneven buildup might be a misfiring DI....

This is a real mystery....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SaabCentral Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:57 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

top of page | sitemap | email us



copyright © 2003 - 2011 saabcentral.com, All rights reserved http://www.whiter.co.uk - valid xhtml - valid css
SaabCentral is an independently run website and is not affiliated in any way to Saab Automobile AB.


Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.