Viggen vs. 93 SE HOT Please help me to understand

[stevehayes01]

Ok since I am new to the 93 world and have only had exposure to my trusty C900 I need help to understand a few key differences with my car and the Viggen. My car is a 2000 93 HOT (Autobox). Thank you in advance for any help.

Ok I know this about my car.
1. Trionic 7
2. 205 BHP
3. FMIC Equipped
4. Hauls A#$!

Ok now heres what I know about the Viggen.
1. 240ish BHP??(Correct me if I am wrong)
2. Trionic 7
3. FMIC Equiped
4. Hauls A$# even faster!!


So now lets fill in the gaps.
What makes the viggen that much more powerful?
are the turbo's different?
Are there differences in the ECU's?
What would it take to get my 93 HOT to Viggen HP?

Also I am trying to figure ou the Free HP mods I can do first to get some more pep out of the girl and then what semi cost effective mods I can do to get some more from her. SO thanks again for the help!!!!

[G96nt]

bigger engine(2.3), bigger turbo(some TD04 "thing"), "better ECU mapping"(would have To be, for the better stuff), and more boost.

my ASSUMPTION is bigger injectors as well to make the Extra power, but those first 3 are the most significant.

[KevBu]

On Abbott site.
Left menu go to products,
then right menu go to 9-3,
top menu read Viggen story.
A good read 8)

[CO-Saab]

Originally Posted by G96nt

bigger engine(2.3), bigger turbo(some TD04 "thing"), "better ECU mapping"(would have To be, for the better stuff), and more boost.

my ASSUMPTION is bigger injectors as well to make the Extra power, but those first 3 are the most significant.

Almost, the viggen and the T-7 HOT's all have the TD04 turbo. The biggest difference is the extra .3L of displacement. I'm pretty sure they use the same injectors but someone else might be able to correct me. There is a different ECU map but that’s due to the diff in displacement.

stevehayes01, the '99 viggen was rated at 225HP and the '00-'02 are rated at 230 HP. Both numbers have been underrated, closer to 240-250 is what most owners will see (~210 WHP) You want to get into that power range call Nick or Bo or ..... and ask for a stage I ECU tune. ~$700 and your SAFELY at viggen power levels. Read up on your tuning options and you'll see that ~270 HP is easily doable. Basically all you need is a 3" Downpipe, air filter and ECU tune. Best of luck!

[Adrian W]

The B205R (in the HOT 205 hp turbo) has the same injectors as the Viggen ... in fact, it has the same head (with different camshafts), same turbo (as was mentioned), same throttle, intake manifold, etc etc etc ...

The Viggen just got a longer stroke crankshaft, shorter connecting rods, slightly different (though of the same material pistons, and slightly better camshafts. (Though still not particularly good.

It shouldn't be hard to get Viggen level horsepower, but getting Viggen level torque will be tough with the lower displacement and lower compression ratio. The Viggen puts out around 300 lb-ft completely stock. (Around ~250 at the wheels.)

All in all, two very similar engines.

Adrian~

[stevehayes01]

Thanks for helping me to understand more on the 2. It is a bit confusing sometimes trying to get the different trim levels and models sorted out. Now am I right in assuming that the 93 Aero (Europe Model) and the 93 SE HOT are the same car? Sorry if these questions are lame here but trying to futher my SAAB knowledge and expand upon the C900 foundation I have.

I am glad to hear that it wont be hard to get to the power levels that I was shooting for (the 250HP range ultimatley). I am assuming also that if for some reason down te road I came into possesion of a 2.3Lt Viggen motor it would be a semi direct swap??

[CO-Saab]

Originally Posted by stevehayes01

Now am I right in assuming that the 93 Aero (Europe Model) and the 93 SE HOT are the same car? Sorry if these questions are lame here but trying to futher my SAAB knowledge and expand upon the C900 foundation I have.

This is correct, for the most part, at least as far as engines go.

Originally Posted by stevehayes01

I am assuming also that if for some reason down te road I came into possesion of a 2.3Lt Viggen motor it would be a semi direct swap??

Not a direct swap but pretty easy. I don't think you'd want to go this route. The major tuners prefer the 2.0L engine for the high output applications. There have been numerous reports of the B235R (Viggen) engine having internal problems above ~ 300 HP. The B205R block should support much more than that with a few bolt-on's. To get around 310 HP on the B205R you'll need a 3" DP, new air filter, turbo, turbo intake, injectors, intercooler, and an uprated clutch. Some airflow work combined with a still larger turbo and injectors should bring you up around 360-380 HP. Much past this will require work on the internals.

I'll caution you to first work on the steering/suspension and brakes before any power upgrades past Stage I ECU.

[Adrian W]

The major tuners prefer the 2.0L engine for the high output applications. There have been numerous reports of the B235R (Viggen) engine having internal problems above ~ 300 HP. The B205R block should support much more than that with a few bolt-on's.

Converting to a 2.3L is a lot more expensive than keeping the 2.0 ... especially if you just want a "little" more power.

That being said, there is nothing at all wrong with the B235R's internals. The pistons are nearly identical with the 2.3L having slightly taller pistons, but with a deeper "dish". At the same torque levels there's no reason to think the 2.0's pistons won't behave in essentially the same manner. For 300+ hp, both engines need a piston upgrade.

I would reccomend the 2.0 because you already have it and that makes it cheaper to upgrade.

Adrian~

[CleveSaab]

Agreed. Just Stage1 yours and don't look back. 8)
That's my next upgrade on the 900. Put my measly 185 HP into the 220 territroy.

[MatthewB]

Or do what I am planning on doing, swap in the 2.3 from a 9000. The pistons are stronger/more reliable and I should easily reach 350-400 hp when I am done. Actually lately I have come up with an even easier way to accomplish my goal. And that is to take the crank and pistons from a 2.3 and install them in my 2.0 block and add a nicely set-up 2.3 head. At the moment I am in the process of collecting the parts and should have this put together in a month or so. This is being done on my '99 9-3.

With this set-up I will start off with 225 hp and 250 ft/lbs and then I will start modifying all the other aspects of the intake and exhaust. So far i have done a Viggen exhaust and intercooler as well as the SAS swaybar upgrade.

Matthew
'00 9-5 Aero
'99 9-3 project

[BLÜE 9-3se]

Sounds awesome MatthewB! Any photos you might want to post would be most appreciated!

[MatthewB]

Actually this is a very good excuse for me to finaly buy a digital camera. When I get going on this project I will get some pictures, and then someone will have to teach me how to post pictures here!!

Matthew
'00 9-5 Aero
'99 9-3 project

[abdukted1456]

Originally Posted by stevehayes01

My car is a 2000 93 HOT (Autobox).

dude I also have a 9-3 HOT autobox. Get a stage 1 chip from maptun, SQr, nordic or BSR and you will not beleive how silly fast your car will be. If you think it hauls ***** now, wait until you get a chip!

don't get one of the cheap 300 dollar chips from some company that tunes every brand of car, stick with the ones I mentioned and you can probably get a good 30-60 HP from stage 1. in fact, although you have a litte less to start with than a viggen or the '02 HOT SE like mine with 205 HP, you have more tuning potential. you probably have the red DI, which means t5, right? Maptun sells a stage 6 kit that claims 380 HP/500 NM torque, much better than the kits for the 205 HP SE and even more for a tuned Viggen. In fact, I have heard that many people are disappointed that their tuned Viggens should be making more power. For some reason it seems like you can squeeeze more extra juice from the smaller engine, while the 2.3, although an amazing powerplant and torqie monoster, seems to be already near it's peak potential in stock form????? :-?

anyways good luck, and have fun.

[stevehayes01]

Originally Posted by abdukted1456

in fact, although you have a litte less to start with than a viggen or the '02 HOT SE like mine with 205 HP, you have more tuning potential. you probably have the red DI, which means t5, right? anyways good luck, and have fun.

I actually have a black DI and 205Hp also! I am doing the 3" air box mod this week and fitting some Eibachs to it soon. I wish that the Autobox was able to handle as much torque as the stick but thats ok I will live with 280HP or so. I checked out your site and your car is pretty tight. Hopefully us autoboxers can swap some experience and pointers to each other! Thanks for yout help.

[CleveSaab]

I agree with Abduckted. Chip that biznatch.
Putting a whole new 9000 motor in there seems hella expensive and complicated compared to just popping in a new ECU.
Less frustration, 1,000% easier and cheaper.

[ragtopcav]

Originally Posted by CleveSaab

I agree with Abduckted. Chip that biznatch.
Putting a whole new 9000 motor in there seems hella expensive and complicated compared to just popping in a new ECU.
Less frustration, 1,000% easier and cheaper.

Until you've seen a ng900 with a 2.3 in action that is, Danny Bindra's car is utterly awsome. The 2.3 and full remap is the only way to go, anything else is half a job .

[abdukted1456]

Originally Posted by stevehayes01

I actually have a black DI and 205Hp also! .... I checked out your site and your car is pretty tight. Hopefully us autoboxers can swap some experience and pointers to each other! Thanks for yout help.

thanks for the compliments! cool, glad to I am not the only crazy one tuning an auto! Ricot83 also has the same car as us and he is running some serious power through his autobox too with some nice mods, showing that you CAN squeeze a little extra from t7 with some simple mods.... I hope to go stage 2 (maybe stg3 if I forget my medicine) next year, but first want to do brakes and shocks/springs. definitely get the steering rack kit, either KIC or MP! A Maptun or SQR stage 1 will get you an additional 50-60 HP just like that, easy as pie. trust me, it is really really really really AWESOME. plus you already have the viggen turbo and IC so you are already a bit ahead of the game...

[ricot83]

yep

[stevehayes01]

Time to start saving my pennies for the upgrade!!!

[ricot83]

i may have started a flame war on vortex.....http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1660111&page=2