"State of Michigan"

[Lodro]

Seems that Saab is being uprooted and moved to Detroit. The better to "integrate" the product lines I suppose. Looks like they are getting less and less leash every day. I was a bit surprised to learn they had only 80 employees in the US (and now, presumably, less) -- when you consider how many of those people have to be sales and marketting or operations, doesn't leave much..


http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/...e_20040521.htm

[Toreador93]

Why doesn't GM just bring ALL of Saab over here!? We can move them into the Oldsmobile plant, and hopefully its curse will follow and put Saab out of its misery.

[SCSaab]

Thats not accurate. What they actually have done is move the SAAB USA Headquarters from Norcross, GA to Detroit, which makes more sense, now that they are part of GM. All of the activity that is going on in Sweeden is staying in Sweeden.

[Lodro]

I meant Saab USA -- should have been obvious from my post -- but the point is the same -- it is pretty ironic that Saab has launched this major marketting campaign about the independence of the Saab approach at a time where they are losing what independence they had.

What makes a Saab a Saab? I'd be interested in other people's top three, but for me I say screw that 'quirky' nonsense, it is:

1. fun to drive
2. strongly unique design
3. effeciency -- in terms of space and resources

In a word, 'smart'. The 9-7x couldn't possibly be further from these ideals, IMNSHO. [edit, ok, well except perhpas a Hummer w/ Aztek-inspired side-clading, but forgive the hyperbole.]

[sethsev7n]

I havent heard any positive news out of saab since GM took full ownership, but.. thats to be expected. I dont expect anything great out of saab anymore under GM's control..sorry.. we'll all just watch them either completely die or turn into some twisted vision of GM and lose every part of its identity that it once held.

[stickline]

Wow....it's threads like this that really make me want to not read the SC anymore. Why does everyone discount GM so much? Have you been reading about what they have done to Cadillac recently? There is so much neat engineering, design and performance over there. They let them revive the brand and now their cars are getting rave reviews in the car mags that traditionally love BMW, MB, Lexus, etc... GM has created a performance division of Cadillac (V-series) and Chevrolet (SS models), I'm sure they won't stop there. These new cars are exciting and winning reviewers over.

Couple this with a huge influx of cash into Saab, many new models (9-7X, 9-2X, whatever for the 9-3SH is taking now, talk of a new Sonett, etc), and I don't see how it is not possible to be excited about the future. There's even development of twin-turboed V-6 motors to give us another Viggen! Is Saab exciting right this moment? Not to many of the traditionalists. Will Saab be exciting in the future? Yes. I am personally hoping that the 9-2X and the 9-7X sell out early in the model year. More cash for Saab = more cash to develop the products that we really want.

The future looks bright to me!!

[valbowski1980]

Good point stickline:

However if the new 9-3ss is the best Saab can do then its screwed. Sales may be up but they are nowhere near the competition which continues to be several steps ahead. BMW, Lexus, Acura and many others keep coming out with better and better new cars, cars which Saab can't match in quality or performance. Maybe I'm too negative here but to me it seems like Saab isn't getting a new lease on life but is just dying a slower death.

[fabric]

If GM does what it did with Caddy to Saab, there are bright days ahead. It's hard to tell which direction it will go right now.

I'll relate a positive story. I had a friend who was looking at convertibles. Looked at the Audi A4 and the Saab, ended up with the Saab. Said it drove nicer, and looked better.

The problem with reading Car and Driver (and I'm guilty of this as well), is associated their driving impressions with the rest of us. These guys are amateur racers, essentially, and are looking at absolute performance. Reading about a difference of .3 seconds in 0-60 times may sound important, but in the real world, you can't tell. Looks are one of the major points, and then just a subjective overall feeling. Not raw numbers. And their subjective ratings are, well, subjective, so you have to take them from that perspective.

The Saabs are in the same category, they are just missing those few extra 10ths that these car magazine guys emphaze, which is not what most of the car buying public emphasizes.

If the car buying public where like the Car and Driver reviewers, Toyota wouldn't be seeling any Camry's, because we'd all by Accords.

[valbowski1980]

In performance Saabs are a bit off and you are right fabric that that .3 makes virtually no difference. However, price out a 9-3ss Linear versus say a TSX or an ARC versus a TL. Both of the A badges give you far more car for less cash. Acura (also see Lexus I300, BMW 325 & 330, ...) also has a reputation for relaibilty which Saab doesn't. How do you compete with that?

My point is not that the 9-3SS is a bad car, the competitors just have better ones. IMO, Saabs are priced too high.

[Jet 9-3]

Originally Posted by valbowski1980

However, price out a 9-3ss Linear versus say a TSX or an ARC versus a TL. Both of the A badges give you far more car for less cash.

MSRP, yes. Real life prices, no.

A loaded Linear will be lower than a TSX, and a loaded Arc will be lower than a TL

[valbowski1980]

Originally Posted by Jet 9-3

MSRP, yes. Real life prices, no.

A loaded Linear will be lower than a TSX, and a loaded Arc will be lower than a TL

Are Saab dealers really cutting the prices that drastically? Also, can the Arc and Linear really match the levels of standard equipment of the Acuras? Not tryin to pick a fight, just wondering.

[finwake]

On the Caddy point, I saw a video clip of the 9-7x product introduction at the ______ autoshow. I am certain I saw that link somewhere on this forum.

The new 9-7x was being introduced alongside with the new Cadillac, as GM's flagship/premium brands. I surmise that GM would not want to tarnish its progress with Cadillac by putting sub-par effort behind the development of the Saab premium brand.

On the note of the product quality: 1. Saab is a year or two behind Cadillac in development by my estimates. I am hopeful we are ramping up to better things to come. Also, I have a 93 Linear with the 17" wheels and sports suspension: very cool and very competitive to the other mentioned brands (Acura, BMW, Audi, etc), and I picked it up in the mid-20s. Looks comperable to a high end model and at a great price just above a Honda Accord.

[finwake]

On the Caddy point, I saw a video clip of the 9-7x product introduction at the ______ autoshow. I am certain I saw that link somewhere on this forum.

The new 9-7x was being introduced alongside with the new Cadillac, as GM's flagship/premium brands. I surmise that GM would not want to tarnish its progress with Cadillac by putting sub-par effort behind the development of the Saab premium brand.

On the note of the product quality: 1. Saab is a year or two behind Cadillac in development by my estimates. I am hopeful we are ramping up to better things to come. Also, I have a 93 Linear with the 17" wheels and sports suspension: very cool and very competitive to the other mentioned brands (Acura, BMW, Audi, etc), and I picked it up in the mid-20s. Looks comperable to a high end model and at a great price just above a Honda Accord.

[fabric]

Originally Posted by valbowski1980

In performance Saabs are a bit off and you are right fabric that that .3 makes virtually no difference. However, price out a 9-3ss Linear versus say a TSX or an ARC versus a TL. Both of the A badges give you far more car for less cash. Acura (also see Lexus I300, BMW 325 & 330, ...) also has a reputation for relaibilty which Saab doesn't. How do you compete with that?

My point is not that the 9-3SS is a bad car, the competitors just have better ones. IMO, Saabs are priced too high.

I'd agree that the Saabs are priced too high. The Saab definitely undercuts the BMW and Benz, though. However, nobody can touch the Acura's on content, although they apparently mucked up on the torque steer of these things, which has been it's undoing in every comparison.

As for reliability, BMW and MB are definitely losing credibility on that front, particularly MB. Saab doesn't appear to be able to shake it's reliability reputation, despite that fact that has improved considerably. Those who truly value reliability go Japanese, so that probably doesn't hurt Saab as much against it's Euro competition.

[valbowski1980]

Originally Posted by finwake

Also, I have a 93 Linear with the 17" wheels and sports suspension: very cool and very competitive to the other mentioned brands (Acura, BMW, Audi, etc), and I picked it up in the mid-20s. Looks comperable to a high end model and at a great price just above a Honda Accord.

Thats a hell of a deal considering a strip Linear starts at about 27 grand according to Saab's website. I can see how an Acura dealer can simply say no to one customer since another customer will come along fast enought and take it. Saab with its weak market share can't afford to do that.

[Firehead]

I'd also like to say that I own an '89 saab 9000 and I can tell over the years when saab became part of GM, It had lost its orignality and started to turn into an american piece of junk. That, of course, is my personal though.

[valbowski1980]

I'm not a big fan of GM Saabs either but I gotta say that I do like the 9-5. Very beautiful car IMO.

Another IMO, Saab would have been in much better shape under the Japanese. Imagine it, the appeal of a Saab with a Toyota or a Honda trouble index.

[Firehead]

Yes the 9-5 is very good, but i doubt GM had much of an influence with it. Not sure though.

[valbowski1980]

Originally Posted by Firehead

Yes the 9-5 is very good, but i doubt GM had much of an influence with it. Not sure though.

The Echotech engine is a GM I think.

[fabric]

The 9-5 is based on a european GM chassis, not sure which one. I think the GM cars in Europe are probably superior to the American made, since they are still fairly different, although that is changing.

I'd agree that GM stuff up till very recently is not great. Just take one look at Caddy though, and you can see they are headed in the right direction. The new 9-3 is also a very good design. It appears the Bob Lutz is having some positive affect.

Your 9000 had a chassis shared with many other's, I believe Lancia and Fiat. Saab does a good job of taking an average to good car and making it much better. If GM could capture some of that, things would be looking good. Big companies take a while to turn around, let's see what GM is like in 5 years.