Does anyone think the 9-7x is a good idea?

[Grimace]

Because I sure don't, and I'll wager that most people who post here don't either. It is almost the antithesis of a typical Saab.
-RWD/AWD
-body on frame
-V8
-large and heavy
-SUV!

I do understand why GM has created a few new models to help Saab gain market share. The 9-5 is actually a very competent large sedan and does quite well in comparison testing. The 9-3 has gotten very favourable reviews. Both have really helped increase sales in the hatchback-phobic US. The 9-2x is pushing it a little - I'm still not sure it will fit in to the product portfolio and do as much for sales as GM is hoping. And a little more should have been done with it to make it more distinctly Saab (and less warmed-over WRX).

But the 9-7x? Do we really need/want a warmed over Trailblazer with a different nameplate slapped on? That's the final straw in diluting the brand image to "just another division of GM".

GM could have done so much more with positioning Saab as the unique, fashionable alternative to BMW, Lexus and the like.

There is a good thread over at the miata.net forum (I'm also Grimace over there) if you want some other opines on the subject. http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimateb...;f=11;t=016254

[garry]

GM could have done so much more with positioning Saab as the unique, fashionable alternative to BMW, Lexus and the like.

So true!


People will argue that GM stopped SAAB from going under when they took over the company... But at the time the small luxury car maker from Sweden had created a brand that was recognized worldwide with high esteem for astounding engineering available to those who could afford it (maybe not in the US from the reports we hear day to day). That worldwide respect and image the luxury car manufacturer achieved was worth 10 times what GM payed for SAAB ... The debt SAAB were in was nothing compared to what they were worth if managed correctly.

To this day SAAB are the ONLY global luxury brand GM own. I find it astounding that GM are not developing new platforms for the SAAB brand directly. SAAB is and still could be the only worldwide Jewel GM own.
10 years after the GM takeover we only saw 3 new models...for a world wide brand thats stupid.

The re badging is said to be a temporary situation while SAAB build up some revenue. I suggest the exercise only serves to damage the brand further, downgrading the model status and market to offer competition to Ford when it should be raising to the greater circles and challenges this proud engineering firm once innovated and pioneered within.
The re badging of the WRX is so blatant it is embarrassing.
I wish GM would stop poossy footing about and see SAAB as the opportunity it is and always was.

The brand survives today only because of the loyalty of its customers throughout the 90's who know where SAAB came from.

[CleveSaab]

Originally Posted by garry

The brand survives today only because of the loyalty of its customers throughout the 90's who know where SAAB came from.

That's just crazy talking. I think you'd agree I'm a bit of a Saab fanboy, and my first Saab story began in 01'.

The 93 SS brought more first timers to Saab than anything they've done in the past. Sure, it does resemble a BMW, but it worked. Saab sold many cars.

I personally would never buy any SUV, but I don't blame Saab/GM one bit for this move.
Let's say you are a Saab dealer. People are trading in thier Saab 9-5 wagons to you, and not getting another Saab, because they want an SUV.
My only problem with it is they should have done this years ago. I think the SUV craze is starting to reach critical mass and will start to decline in the next few years with the intro of cars like the 9-2.

[garry]

9-5 9-3 and especially the the 9-3ss have shown that SAAB can get back on track. 2000 to 2004 reflecting a general restoration of faith that the company is once again able to compete utilizing its own design and engineering.
Just when SAAB is starting to show how good it can be again the 9-2 and 9-7X bizarrely arrive taking SAAB backward reusing older platforms instead of progressing with new, fresh and innovative design of its own. GM continues to force SAAB to struggle.

Im not bashing SAAB. I have owned 5 including a 97 900.
It makes me mad that just when SAAB look to be heading down the right road with fantastic cars like the new 9-5 and the 93ss they go and do a stupid thing like rebadge other peoples older engineering. Now would have been the ideal time to build on the 93ss success with more superb and original engineering...

Trailblazer anyone?.... no thanks.

[saabfan]

The brand survives today only because of the loyalty of its customers throughout the 90's who know where SAAB came from.

The brand survives today because of people who buy Saabs today. People driving 900s and 9000s are not helping Saab out, I am sorry to say. Yes, they did help Saab way back when, but not now. The loyalists who refuse to buy new Saab products because they consider it 'tarnished' or 'unSaab' are only speeding up Saab's demise. Which is totally fine if you don't like the product... but don't think that by having an older Saab is what keeps Saab alive today.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by saabfan

The brand survives today because of people who buy Saabs today. People driving 900s and 9000s are not helping Saab out, I am sorry to say. Yes, they did help Saab way back when, but not now. The loyalists who refuse to buy new Saab products because they consider it 'tarnished' or 'unSaab' are only speeding up Saab's demise. Which is totally fine if you don't like the product... but don't think that by having an older Saab is what keeps Saab alive today.

Well said Saabfan, your totally right! If no one bought new Saabs because their not "real Saabs" then all there would be left by now are the old 900's and 9000's, Having owned both I can say they are great cars but so are the new models out now, especially the 9-5 it is tremendous value for money.

[TYPE IXXI]

I have always loved SAAB's and do consider myself a purist...
but.. I am in need of an SUV to tow my boat and do house chores. So if it makes me less of a purist to buy a 9-7 then so be it. We are getting a great platform and I for one welcome the SUV with open arms.

Its just a matter of which Viggen in the barn is going to get evicted to make room. My heart aches thinking about it.
the 99 Vig is almost paid off so it will probably be the 2001 Vig that goes.

[SentraSR20]

Originally Posted by saabfan

The brand survives today because of people who buy Saabs today. People driving 900s and 9000s are not helping Saab out, I am sorry to say. Yes, they did help Saab way back when, but not now. The loyalists who refuse to buy new Saab products because they consider it 'tarnished' or 'unSaab' are only speeding up Saab's demise. Which is totally fine if you don't like the product... but don't think that by having an older Saab is what keeps Saab alive today.

Saabfan - Precisely correct! The one and only reason Saab is even still building cars is because of GM. No matter how you slice it, Saab was in trouble financially and GM was there to relieve them - with a few conditions of course. That's the price of doing business, though, you don't get something for nothing... :wink: It seems GM's plan has worked, however, I don't think Saab has sold this many cars in a long time.... 8)

Originally Posted by garry

To this day SAAB are the ONLY global luxury brand GM own.

Oh, so very wrong. GM's original luxury nameplate is available in Europe - Cadillac. :wink:

To the original question posed, however, I do agree. The last thing that was needed by the automotive world was another variant of the Trailblazer. It's a great vehicle, both in capability and in value - when in Chevy guise. However, it doesn't have the quality and refinement needed to be used as a luxury platform as well. Just my opinion, but my parent's do own one, so I'm pretty familiar with it. It's powerful, tows/hauls a lot and was very inexpensive for what you got. That was my father's criteria and the Trailblazer beat out most anything available at the time, he didn't care about luxury, just capability. That is what the Trailblazer has in spades.

[garry]

Anyone got any comparative sales figues for Cadillac outside the USA and Canada?
I am ready to be surprised

My guess... SAAB sell way more cars than Cadillac worldwide. (excluding the US) In the UK for example, we have none.
I would imagine Rolls Royce sell more cars outside the US than Cadillac.
Im sure there may be a Cadillac dealer in one of the UK's big city's but I have never seen a Cadillac younger than 30 year old on the road. Im not making this up, the only time you are likely to see a Cadillac on a UK road will be parked outside a 50's rock and roll club.
I can only assume that the UK would be one of the most viable target markets for Cadillac to exploit?....not the case. zero.

I am even having to check the spelling of Cadillac whenever I use it as it is such a rare word for me to use. ....2 D's or 2 L's ? I don't know im just copying you. :-? So I have been using the word Caddy instead most of the time.

Can Cadillac cut it in Europe?
29 Sep 2003
Source: just-auto.com editorial team

GM’s vice chairman, Bob Lutz, said he’d like to be building Cadillacs in Germany? “This would help the brand to be more accepted in Germany and other European countries,” Lutz was quoted as saying. “We should be able to find the necessary capacity,” the GM product honcho added, and probably at an Opel factory.

Help the brand be more accepted in European countries?.... That sound to me as if Cadillac are not even established in Europe?

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml

I Quote

Cadillac used to call itself "The Standard of the World," but for decades few outside GM'S sinecures in Detroit have actually believed it. Cadillac once rivaled Rolls-Royce as a paragon of luxury; later, as the brand embraced mass production and volumes surged in the 1940s and 50s, it came to symbolize a moneyed, confident; faintly flamboyant attitude that today is found among BMW buyers.

But few people under age 50 now aspire to owning a Cadillac -- and that's in North America, which accounts for 98 percent of sales Outside the U.S., where GM sold fewer than 5,000 Cadillacs last year, the brand lives on in a time warp of tail fins and Elvis. "Cadillac has a wonderful image," says Rudy Zeller, global market director of GM Europe. "But it's missing about 30 years of development."

Now, Why should Cadillac be re badging SAAB when SAAB is already established worldwide by comparison?.. MAKE BETTER SAAB's and forget about Cadillac outside the US... If a European SAAB buyer thought a new SAAB was based on a Cadillac they would probably be interested. Rebadging the other way is simply swimming upstream by comparison

SAAB is GM's ONLY worldwide luxury brand. If Cadillac are worldwide then they are a small specialist firm by comparison. 5,000 cars worldwide outide the US ????

The brand, respect and the network is already establish to sell premium luxury cars outside the US, its called SAAB.

It looks like GM intend to use the SAAB network to sell a brand nobody wants in Europe.
Again, GM fail to see the potential of SAAB outside the US. But, GM seem to want to market SAAB against standard Fords hyundi etc......

Insane

For Europe Cadillac is wrong wrong wrong and if GM are so stubborn to throw vast amounts of money trying to establish Cadillac as a serious contender it will probably be the beginning of the end for GM



If GM want to sell large volumes of luxury cars in Europe with little outlay and risk.... Re badge the so called 'luxury Cadillac's' as SAAB.

[Mattlach]

Originally Posted by CleveSaab

I personally would never buy any SUV, but I don't blame Saab/GM one bit for this move.
Let's say you are a Saab dealer. People are trading in thier Saab 9-5 wagons to you, and not getting another Saab, because they want an SUV.
My only problem with it is they should have done this years ago. I think the SUV craze is starting to reach critical mass and will start to decline in the next few years with the intro of cars like the 9-2.

This is partially true, and partially not.

Rebadging a Chevy is NOT the solution. They should have gone the way of the Volvo XC90, BMW X5 or Mercedes ML, Porsche Cheyenne, VW Touareg. All of these are refined well built SUV's (even though I wouldn't want one)

GM is actively ruining the SAAB brand name, and removing its superior engineered solutions. Instead of making the wise choice and designing in unique and well engineered SAAB products into the rest of the GM line, they are doing the opposite, forcing their GM dog products on the poor SAAB engineers.

The Ford Motor Company is a success story when it comes to a big American car company owning luxury brands. They have successfully owned and operated Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, and others in their "Premiere Automotive Group" (run by Ferdinand Rietzle, ex. BMW exec, if memory serves) without diluting the brand or the technical superiority.

GM seems hell-bent on ruining SAAB, and it is sad. Unfortunately I foresee SAAB being nothing but another Cadillac in a few years. A dumb American dog of a car...

Being an engineer educated and employed in the U.S. has not biased me in favor of American products. in fact, it has just made me even more sincere that buying any mechanical product that is American made is a bad, bad idea, and unless GM shapes up their running SAAB, my current SAAB will probably be my 4th and last

1978 SAAB 99
1985 SAAB 900
1991 SAAB 900
2001 SAAB 9-5
The End?

[Mattlach]

Originally Posted by saabfan

The brand survives today because of people who buy Saabs today. People driving 900s and 9000s are not helping Saab out, I am sorry to say. Yes, they did help Saab way back when, but not now. The loyalists who refuse to buy new Saab products because they consider it 'tarnished' or 'unSaab' are only speeding up Saab's demise. Which is totally fine if you don't like the product... but don't think that by having an older Saab is what keeps Saab alive today.

Although your argument makes sense, it may actually not be correct.

Car companies make very little money on selling cars. (Some of them even sell them at loss) They do this because they hope you will buy factory parts and service. Thats their biggest income source.

That being said, it doesnt matter if you drive a new SAAB or an older one, as long as you get factory parts when you repair it :P

[Mattlach]

Originally Posted by TYPE IXXI

I have always loved SAAB's and do consider myself a purist...
but.. I am in need of an SUV to tow my boat and do house chores. So if it makes me less of a purist to buy a 9-7 then so be it. We are getting a great platform and I for one welcome the SUV with open arms.

Its just a matter of which Viggen in the barn is going to get evicted to make room. My heart aches thinking about it.
the 99 Vig is almost paid off so it will probably be the 2001 Vig that goes.

Just do what the Swedes do...

Put a hitch on the Viggen :P

Seriously.. At least when I left Sweden in 1999, NOONE had SUV's. They were an aberration. yet lots of Swedes like boating and have boats. They just put hitches on their every day cars. (Saabs, Volvos, etc.)

It is a fallacy that you need a <i>BIG SUV OR TRUCK</i> to tow stuff... I've towed huge *** boats in my dads old 1984 Volvo 240...

[valbowski1980]

Yet another fuel guzzling SUV is exactly what we don't need. Will it make money and win market share for Saab? Maybe, but every single one of these overweight and inefficient turds that is created makes us that much more dependent on foreign oil. The question is why not create a hybrid? Honda and Toyota can't build enough to meet the demand.

[SentraSR20]

Garry - For all your fluff and evidence, you still have not disproved my simple statement that Cadillac IS available in Europe - making it one of GM's global brands . Goto www.gm.com and navigate to their global listing - you might be surprised. Don't get caught up in yourself and think that the UK constitutes all of Europe, by the way....

P.S. You were right to copy me, it IS "Cadillac"... :wink: You could have simply googled the word instead of writing a paragraph about how you didn't know how to spell it - whatever the point you were trying to get across...

[valbowski1980]

Originally Posted by Mattlach

Although your argument makes sense, it may actually not be correct.

Car companies make very little money on selling cars. (Some of them even sell them at loss) They do this because they hope you will buy factory parts and service. Thats their biggest income source.

That being said, it doesnt matter if you drive a new SAAB or an older one, as long as you get factory parts when you repair it :P

You mean like the 500 bucks I'm about to drop to get my fuel pump replaced .

[Mattlach]

Originally Posted by valbowski1980

You mean like the 500 bucks I'm about to drop to get my fuel pump replaced .

Exactly. It's no fun, but it's the factory parts that keep the factory alive. Not the vehicle itself.. Most car manufacturers have less than 1% profit margins on cars, many sell cars at loss.

By that reasoning people driving older SAABs actually benefit SAAB MORE cause they are paying more for repairs than someone who is still under warranty. :P

[CleveSaab]

Originally Posted by Mattlach

By that reasoning people driving older SAABs actually benefit SAAB MORE cause they are paying more for repairs than someone who is still under warranty. :P

I was actually going to say that too. My Saab dealer makes a lot of money on me, and I've never bought a new one. (Including another $50 this weekend). Not to mention how nice they are to me, I recommend them to everyone and have had 2 people I told to go there actually BUY cars from them. How am I not supporting Saab?? I am...in a big way.

As for Cadillac...anyone that thinks Cadillac is garbage....has never driven one. Those are some well-built solid fast comfortable luxury cars, and HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. Drive a 1990 Eldorado....very nice ride, very fast car...they've only gotten better.

Not to mention the new Roadster is sweet as hell.



Of course, it better be for $70,000+.

[saabfan]

That's a very good point... I guess I assumed that the majority of Saab 'purists' do their own repairs, etc., and thus the money to Saab is limited. Additionally, many of the older cars get parts from wrecked and salvaged Saabs, no?

But yes, I do agree to some extent.

[garry]

Originally Posted by SentraSR20

Garry - For all your fluff and evidence, you still have not disproved my simple statement that Cadillac IS available in Europe - making it one of GM's global brands :lol:. Goto www.gm.com and navigate to their global listing - you might be surprised. Don't get caught up in yourself and think that the UK constitutes all of Europe, by the way.... :roll:

P.S. You were right to copy me, it IS "Cadillac"... :wink: You could have simply googled the word instead of writing a paragraph about how you didn't know how to spell it - whatever the point you were trying to get across... :roll:

Maybe Cadillac IS available in Europe... I know why I have never seen one as well....

Outside the USA Cadillac sold only 5000 cars WORLDWIDE

It would be an understatement to call that poor. TVR in Yorkshire probably sell more!.
Cadillac is simply not recognized as a world brand outside Detroit.

So, I will rework my statement:-

SAAB is the only global brand anywhere near a level perceived as luxury or quality that GM own; - that sell at a mass produced level.

GM could be funding a Cadillac dealership in every country in the world !!!... but they only sold 5000 cars last year outside the USA. How many countries are there?
Split 5000 between all the countries in the world if you like it only makes the situation look worse :o

The new Cadillac's may look nice but GM would sell more of the very same metal in Europe if it had a SAAB badge on it.
Simple mathematics and marketing.

America seems to like the European/Asian style of car. The new Cadillac's look very American to me.... I can't see the admiration working in reverse. Plus the name will put many off conjuring up images of large fuel guzzling cartoon like cars. In the UK and Europe we have had expensive petrol for years, the last thing we want is to be reminded of this by the sort of image Cadillac represents (in our world at least)


What are GM thinking about !!!
I can imagine the delight in the board room

"Well we sold 5000 Cadillac's worldwide outside the USA last year"
"Outstanding news!, lets plough millions and millions of dollars into promoting Cadillac as our main luxury brand outside the USA"
"Hey!, we could use the SAAB dealerships"

Durrrrr

I suppose SAAB will be blamed for loosing GM even more money when they find it near impossible to sell Cadillacs in Europe.

[Mattlach]

Originally Posted by CleveSaab

As for Cadillac...anyone that thinks Cadillac is garbage....has never driven one. Those are some well-built solid fast comfortable luxury cars, and HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. Drive a 1990 Eldorado....very nice ride, very fast car...they've only gotten better.

I have only very limited experience with Cadillac's.

As I understand it, they cater to their core market very well. Large cushy luxury cars. There probably isn't anyone who can touch them in this field.

Thats not the kind of car I'm interested in driving though. (and apparently more Europeans agree with me on this)

Every attempt they have made towards making a car more like the increasingly popular european sport sedans seems to have failed. ts just a matter of facing the facts. For some reason american cars like the Cadillac Catera, and the Lincoln LS, aimed squarely at the sports sedan market fail to impress.


As far as the new roadster goes... I'm not entirely sold on the new styling. I don't know why all the auto makers have become so spaceship inspired in their car designs as of late. (then again I'm just very conservative as far as car design goes)
That being said I hear it drives quite well, and isn't as "sloppy" in the suspension as most american cars are. I'd have to drive one before making up my mind though.