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NG900 & OG9-3 Performance, Mods & Tuning Covers Tuning & Performance modifications for the NG900 (1994 to 1998) & OG9-3 (1999-2002) & '03 Convertible

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  #1  
Old 28th March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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Default Need a small fan

I'm going to the bone yard tomorrow to try and find a small AC condenser fan to mount to the IC to hopefully get more consistent temps as I noticed a slight drop in power with 74 degrees today with some humidity (it works for a radiator, right?). Thinking of Geo Metros, older Hyundai, etc. as a good donor. Can anyone think of a car that came with small AC condenser fans? Even if the main fan is integrated, I can cut it off. Think of cars with 1.0L to maybe 1.6L engines and low HP from the 80's to the 90's. Summit has a 10" fan, but the boneyard ones are in the $20 range and don't need super CFM. If I can I find an inexpensive temp gauge to mount to the charge pipe, I'll comment on the difference in temps (if any). Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 29th March 2012
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Crothers Crothers is offline
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In theory this might sound good, but I can't imagine you'd notice any difference. The fan for the radiator comes on when the car is stopped or going slow as there isn't enough air flow. Moving at speed your pushing the most amount of air you can through the IC. The only way to change that is more surface area/ more free flowing.

I mean if your moving slowly you might notice less heat soak. Try it and and let us know your results
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  #3  
Old 29th March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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The goal is to get intake charge to stay consistent during warmer weather. If you sit for 2 minutes at a light, everything warms up more (cooling fan helps with radiator, doubt it helps IC). I'd like to see if it'll keep the IC's surface at or near a constant temp.

Radiators by themselves can't keep a car cool without a fan (some exceptions to the rule), for $20, it's worth a shot.

You could cut a 10"-12" hole in your hood and a car will actually run faster as the heat is allowed to evacuate (same concept as a cowl hood), but in theory you wouldn't expect any change, but it's significant. Like running with a hood off but without the drag.
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  #4  
Old 29th March 2012
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I think that spraying water on the IC would cool it much better than air... Ron
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  #5  
Old 30th March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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I went to local yard and asked for a small fan. Guy in a back room had a 10" slim fan under his desk that was apparently installed in a K9 Crown Vic car. The fan was used to cool the dog LOL. It's actually a small radiator fan though and for $15 I couldn't say no . It's actually powerful enough that it could probably replace the factory radiator fan which it might some day if a larger turbo goes in.

I had to cut some of the inner bumper to mount it as a pusher. Problem is I punctured the IC with the saw blade when it decided to jump out of the groove, so the IC is leaking (didn't want to pull the bumper and look at what happens LOL). Tried pinching the outer rows to stop the leak but IC is toast.

Good news is the fan will fit perfectly on a larger IC. It really moves some serious air and I expect it'll help a bunch to keep the unit cooler. IC are nothing more than dry radiators, so I don't understand the skepticism guys. The bumper, license plate, and oddly placed IC on the 9-3 actually restricts air flow over the fins. Unless you're at highway speeds constantly, the entire IC isn't going to be very efficient around town with just the wind passing through 1/3 of it.

Also picked up some "shark gills" off an 04' Hyundai Tiburon. I'm going to mount them reverse (like 2 mini cowls or "louvers") to pull air out of the engine compartment and towards the windshield. Should be a subtle and stock-like look. Mounting them about 4-5 inches apart from the center of the hood, just in front of the washer nozzles. I popped the "fake" grilles out of them to make them fully functional. Oddly enough, they match the factory blue so well I might just buff them and leave em' be. Will just look like factory louvers. Gonna cut some thin gauge sheeting and make a drip tray under them to direct water towards the factory drip tube above the steering rack. Should permit air to get pulled from the engine and also keep everything dry. Will hopefully be working on this Friday or Saturday, weather permitting.Pics of the fans and gills:
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  #6  
Old 30th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '97 Saab SE Turbo View Post
I think that spraying water on the IC would cool it much better than air... Ron
Or something with a lower boiling point, if the heat from the IC could you be used to boil the liquid, the energy used for the state change would result in better cooling.
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  #7  
Old 30th March 2012
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lms lms is offline
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This reminds me of my spg days where they had the ic mounted in the engine compartment and off to the side. I found that an old talon ic which was bigger would fit if you modified the inlet and outlet pipes. Then one would place a spal pull fan and have it activate at a certain temp. This actually worked pretty damn well, but there was no comparison to mounting a front IC. I run a forge in my viggen which works great, but I also have an aqua mist water injection pump modified so it sprays a fine mist of water at three different spots on the ic when it reaches a certain temp/pressure.
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  #8  
Old 31st March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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Originally Posted by lms View Post
I run a forge in my viggen which works great, but I also have an aqua mist water injection pump modified so it sprays a fine mist of water at three different spots on the ic when it reaches a certain temp/pressure.
Nice! Ideally if I had the money and expertise I'd try running some custom cooling lines to try and circulate coolant from an independent reservoir tank separate from the main engine coolant. Then use like a small fuel pump (or whatever works) to just circulate the water/coolant to help keep constant temps.


Unfortunately, since I inadvertently damaged the factory IC, I won't be able to post anything with regards to any temp changes from running the fan with it. I did get an aftermarket IC and I bought a water temp gauge that will get mounted to the piping somewhere to monitor air temps instead of coolant. Will try and get both installed today and see where the temps are at. Been a little chilly here past couple days so the real test won't be until it's in the 70's or higher. Also going to try and get the hood cut for the louvers and that should help overall temps as well.

Stupid question time: The factory aluminum intake charge pipe that sits between the TB elbow coupler and the IC "out" rubber hose, has a clamp that gets bolted to the side of the head for support. Also seems like a massive heat soak point as heat from the head gets transferred through the bolt and the clamp, thus effectively putting unwanted heat to the aluminum pipe. Been thinking about removing the clamp and bolt and either letting the pipe sit as-is with no support, or maybe fabbing a simple bracket that attaches to a colder spot and keeps movement of the pipe to a minimum. Anyone ever thought about this before? Am I making sense that it will help combat heat transfer from the head to the pipe? Basically counteracting the effect of the IC's efficiency slightly?
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  #9  
Old 31st March 2012
TwinCam TwinCam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius DIO View Post

Stupid question time: The factory aluminum intake charge pipe that sits between the TB elbow coupler and the IC "out" rubber hose, has a clamp that gets bolted to the side of the head for support. Also seems like a massive heat soak point as heat from the head gets transferred through the bolt and the clamp, thus effectively putting unwanted heat to the aluminum pipe. Been thinking about removing the clamp and bolt and either letting the pipe sit as-is with no support, or maybe fabbing a simple bracket that attaches to a colder spot and keeps movement of the pipe to a minimum. Anyone ever thought about this before? Am I making sense that it will help combat heat transfer from the head to the pipe? Basically counteracting the effect of the IC's efficiency slightly?
I like the way you think.
I've never noticed this. I'm sure if this mod is done it wouldn't make a huge difference itself but might help with other mods.

Tomorrow I'm going to take a look at it, since I already have the coolant bypass mod on the TB it would be worth doing this as well.
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  #10  
Old 31st March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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Originally Posted by TwinCam View Post
I like the way you think.
I've never noticed this. I'm sure if this mod is done it wouldn't make a huge difference itself but might help with other mods.

Since I already have the coolant bypass mod on the TB it would be worth doing this as well.
It's funny but I'm on the fence about the TB coolant bypass. At first it seemed to make sense, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to let the coolant pass through it to limit the upper temp range to whatever the coolant is, rather than the head's transfer temp as the intake's overall heat isn't regulated. The TB is attached to the intake, which is then attached to the head. So whatever heat the head puts off, would get transferred eventually to the TB without the benefit of the coolant cooling it.

In other words the head's heat is regulated by coolant, the intake runners are NOT, the TB is regulated as well. Remove the coolant from the throttle body and it's ability to regulate heat is removed. Make sense or am I thinking about it wrong some how? Would almost need a phenolic spacer somewhere on the runners or TB to runners to get a benefit from NOT having heat constantly traveling away from the head to the runners and TB.
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  #11  
Old 31st March 2012
smut smut is offline
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As far as that bolt holding the charge pipe id leave it.I left it of when I changed my turbo and I kept having the pipe separate at the rubber coupling put it on ,no more seperating.
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  #12  
Old 31st March 2012
TwinCam TwinCam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius DIO View Post
It's funny but I'm on the fence about the TB coolant bypass. At first it seemed to make sense, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to let the coolant pass through it to limit the upper temp range to whatever the coolant is, rather than the head's transfer temp as the intake's overall heat isn't regulated. The TB is attached to the intake, which is then attached to the head. So whatever heat the head puts off, would get transferred eventually to the TB without the benefit of the coolant cooling it.

In other words the head's heat is regulated by coolant, the intake runners are NOT, the TB is regulated as well. Remove the coolant from the throttle body and it's ability to regulate heat is removed. Make sense or am I thinking about it wrong some how? Would almost need a phenolic spacer somewhere on the runners or TB to runners to get a benefit from NOT having heat constantly traveling away from the head to the runners and TB.
Ideally doing this mod should also have spacer underneath the throttle body to eliminate the heat transfer to it as well.
Another mod I will eventually get to.

The saab site I got the instructions from has that mod listed as well. Just need to get my hands on some of the material to make the spacer.

As far as cooling the TB right now, the way I see it, my intake temp is lower than my engine temp so that should cool off the TB from any heat transfer.
I could be mistaken, but the mod was free and hasn't had any ill effects.
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  #13  
Old 31st March 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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You might want to look in to fitting a pipe from a T7. It was made out of plastic to avoid the heat absorption issue. I have no idea if the locations end up the same and you'd probably have to couple the T5 TB fitting back on at the head end with a silicone coupler.

Keep us informed on the fan and the fins. I was actually thinking that a low wide scoop with a large center hole under and a vent out the back (windshield side) would move a lot more air through the engine compartment. However, there'd be a lot of strong feedback here :-)
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  #14  
Old 31st March 2012
Cm452 Cm452 is offline
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There is one profound issue with your theory; everything.

1) The intercooler doesn't heat soak while you are sitting still; only boosting hard will cause that, which can only happen on the move, thus negating the use of your stationary fan.

2) The PRIMARY cause of your "power" loss is ambient temperature, which will again, not be affected, let alone LOWERED by a fan. As atmospheric air gets warmer, it gets less dense, thus there are less O2 molecules, which are the source of power.

3) The operating temperature of the engine, the underhood temps, and the resulting heat soak of the underhood intake plumbing causes power loss as well through the lower temperature differential Eg 20 degrees Fahrenheit ambient and 160 degree underhood is a 140 degree differential, thus increasing the rate of heat loss via some variable of the arrhenius constant and thermo-dynamics as opposed to 80 degrees and 180 underhood= 100 degrees for delta T. The OE fan already controls under-hood temps, more or less; this is unrelated to the intercooler as well.

4) The ONLY way to improve performance is to keep your pipes insulated from engine heat AND to use some sort of endothermic chemical; many people buy water/methanol intercooler sprayers, which can lower the IC temperature below that of ambient.
5) Maybe a fan to blow fresh air into the air-filter area, as this heat soaks?

Nonetheless, enjoy the project; I wish you the best
-Cm
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  #15  
Old 31st March 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cm452 View Post
There is one profound issue with your theory; everything.

1) The intercooler doesn't heat soak while you are sitting still; only boosting hard will cause that, which can only happen on the move, thus negating the use of your stationary fan.

2) The PRIMARY cause of your "power" loss is ambient temperature, which will again, not be affected, let alone LOWERED by a fan. As atmospheric air gets warmer, it gets less dense, thus there are less O2 molecules, which are the source of power.

3) The operating temperature of the engine, the underhood temps, and the resulting heat soak of the underhood intake plumbing causes power loss as well through the lower temperature differential Eg 20 degrees Fahrenheit ambient and 160 degree underhood is a 140 degree differential, thus increasing the rate of heat loss via some variable of the arrhenius constant and thermo-dynamics as opposed to 80 degrees and 180 underhood= 100 degrees for delta T. The OE fan already controls under-hood temps, more or less; this is unrelated to the intercooler as well.

4) The ONLY way to improve performance is to keep your pipes insulated from engine heat AND to use some sort of endothermic chemical; many people buy water/methanol intercooler sprayers, which can lower the IC temperature below that of ambient.
5) Maybe a fan to blow fresh air into the air-filter area, as this heat soaks?

Nonetheless, enjoy the project; I wish you the best
-Cm
What I meant to say is in hotter weather @ idle everything gets hotter, then you'd obviously have to drive a bit to cool everything off. The idea with the fan is to help keep the actual IC base temp cooler and consistent all around, especially as boost numbers go up. So if it's warm out and I decide to run it hard, the fan should help a bit. Like I said before I'll hook up a temp gauge and monitor the difference (if any). Radiator fan doesn't seem to have any bearing on the IC as it's too far away. The fan could actually be installed under the louvers I'm wanting to install. I might keep that as back up use if it fails to help the new IC lower it's surface temps. Obviously a meth kit would be nice, but I'll add a turbo and other stuff 1st.
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  #16  
Old 1st April 2012
AZR Racing AZR Racing is offline
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you COULD heat soak at idle (not hot but warm). you are still drawing air though the compressor, which when not sucking a mass of cool air does heat up, through heat soak from the CHRA and turbine assembly. you could use C02 sprayers on the IC to cool it. i have seen water sprayers at the drag strip. if you want to get really fancy reroute your ac lines and basically air condition (refrigerate) the IC lol...... although the power gain from that would be sucked up from the added rotational drag from running the AC pump.
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  #17  
Old 1st April 2012
Pontius DIO Pontius DIO is offline
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you COULD heat soak at idle (not hot but warm). you are still drawing air though the compressor, which when not sucking a mass of cool air does heat up, through heat soak from the CHRA and turbine assembly. you could use C02 sprayers on the IC to cool it. i have seen water sprayers at the drag strip. if you want to get really fancy reroute your ac lines and basically air condition (refrigerate) the IC lol...... although the power gain from that would be sucked up from the added rotational drag from running the AC pump.
Often wondered about the benefit of refrigerant lines lines.
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