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  #1  
Old 24th April 2011
B202NUT B202NUT is offline
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Default 9000 Fuel Injectors / B212 Fuel Injectors / B202 Fuel Injectors

We own 2 Saabs 92 N/A (B212) and a 91 Turbo Vert SE (B202). I read a post where it was argueably indicated the 212 Bosch Injectors were a better fit for the 202 engine. I plan to do light mods to the B202 car (upgraded FPR, Mod APC, larger down pipe, maybe meth injection).

I have 4 injectors from a 95 9000 Turbo and was wondering if rotating these injectors in anyway would benefit either car?

i.e.: swapping the 92 N/A injectors into the 91 Turbo, and putting the Turbo injectors into the N/A?

Or maybe putting the 9000 Turbo injectors into the 91 turbo B202 and leaving the N/A stock?

Or is this entire thought a waste of time?

thanks for your input
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Old 24th April 2011
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Switching injectors is not a good idea unless you plan on having the fuel maps adjusted at the same time. The ecu's and injectors are matched so mismatching them can create a host of drive-ability problems i.e. injectors dumping more or less petrol into the engine then the ecu calculated for. There a couple tuners out there that can burn an eprom chip for the ecu with adjusted/more aggressive fueling for you.
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Old 24th April 2011
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Originally Posted by dmgb5 View Post
Switching injectors is not a good idea unless you plan on having the fuel maps adjusted at the same time. The ecu's and injectors are matched so mismatching them can create a host of drive-ability problems i.e. injectors dumping more or less petrol into the engine then the ecu calculated for. There a couple tuners out there that can burn an eprom chip for the ecu with adjusted/more aggressive fueling for you.
So in essence a waste of time; excatly the answer I was looking for in my desire to keep mods simple.

thank you..
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Old 24th April 2011
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You can get your injectors cleaned which might give a little more uhmpf.
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Old 25th April 2011
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You can get your injectors cleaned which might give a little more uhmpf.

there is no deliverability issues at all; i was just being sure the 9000 were of no real use to me; I grabbed them in a salvage yard and they were free. They look alot bigger than the origanl 900 injectors and the spray pattern is different so I was just wondering.

thanks for the response.
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Old 27th April 2011
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They flow quite a lot more fuel those 9000 injectors. I would guess they are Bosch 0 280 150 431? Used on 9000 tuning projects up to around 300hp.

As explained though, just fitting those and doing nothing else won't give good results. Just slightly worse fuel consumption and occassional / often difficult starting.

The engines are never suffering from a lack of fuel. You would really notice if they were.

More than likely you could get the original injectors on the B202t to provide enough fuel for 200hp without any mods. The ECU is already mapped to fuel for higher load measured through the airflow meter.

You only need to change the injectors or remap if you are going well outside what Saab intended. I think 230hp has even been quoted as a dyno result with standard fuel setup and good results at some point in the past. That was with a 1990 Lucas fuel system in the UK. Would not be surprised if the US version performs similar.
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Old 3rd June 2011
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So I have learned that I can use the 9000 injectors with the APC mod, 3Bar FPR, and heving a remapping would give pleasurable results.

if this is correct, since I already have the injectors, where do I get the remapping done, and exactly what is remapping?

I like to thoroughly understand the benefits and draw backs if anyone would like to elborate a bit more.

Cordially,
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Old 12th June 2011
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From my experience with Volvos, LH 2.4 can adjust itself, within certain limits, for different size injectors. LH 2.2 can't. And that is why you can go from 30lb/h injectors to 36lb/h in a LH 2.4 Volvo.

Beyond that we have remapping with is adjusting the fuel tables (or maps) in the ECU's EPROM. If you are doing a setup others have done, chances are you can either get chips already remapped for you or go somewhere and have custom ones burned. Or do it yourself (download maps, edit them, burn new chip, try, rinse and repeat).

Major issue is first to decide where you want to go, what are your objectives. Then it is easier to talk to someone and get some pointers/feedback.

EX: you want to build, say, a 250HP 91 C900 turbo. Or a 300HP one. or 1200HP. That will determine how much air and fuel the engine will need and, as a result, which fuel injectors, fuel pressure, boost, and so on. And then we have to decide if your AMM can handle that. If not, what to do then.
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Old 16th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremedalek View Post
From my experience with Volvos, LH 2.4 can adjust itself, within certain limits, for different size injectors. LH 2.2 can't. And that is why you can go from 30lb/h injectors to 36lb/h in a LH 2.4 Volvo.

Beyond that we have remapping with is adjusting the fuel tables (or maps) in the ECU's EPROM. If you are doing a setup others have done, chances are you can either get chips already remapped for you or go somewhere and have custom ones burned. Or do it yourself (download maps, edit them, burn new chip, try, rinse and repeat).

Major issue is first to decide where you want to go, what are your objectives. Then it is easier to talk to someone and get some pointers/feedback.

EX: you want to build, say, a 250HP 91 C900 turbo. Or a 300HP one. or 1200HP. That will determine how much air and fuel the engine will need and, as a result, which fuel injectors, fuel pressure, boost, and so on. And then we have to decide if your AMM can handle that. If not, what to do then.
200 -250 bhp is about all I am looking to go up to with this car. With that said I think ejenner mentioned the stock injectors are ok upto 300bhp. Another guy in the workshop forum indicated larger injectors are a nice compliment to the mods I previously mentioned.

I just want a nice increase in power but nothing over the top; this is my wifes car so she just needs to know the extra pep is there when she needs it,

any additional suggestions, or links to posts where i can leqrn more would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers,
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  #10  
Old 17th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B202NUT View Post
200 -250 bhp is about all I am looking to go up to with this car. With that said I think ejenner mentioned the stock injectors are ok upto 300bhp. Another guy in the workshop forum indicated larger injectors are a nice compliment to the mods I previously mentioned.

I just want a nice increase in power but nothing over the top; this is my wifes car so she just needs to know the extra pep is there when she needs it,

any additional suggestions, or links to posts where i can leqrn more would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers,
Stock injectors are not even close to getting you to there. Stock North American 900c Bosch LH 2.2 and 2.4 came 19lbs/hr at 3 bar.
This calculator will give you an idea what you need for your goals. Assuming you can control it.
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4

For reference I run 42lbs/hr at 3 bar, 75% duty and produce 235 whp on my 900c with a standalone engine management. Some folks use 60lbs for more headroom.

As for learning more: EFI-101 excellent 2 day class ran by EFI University.
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Old 17th June 2011
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Originally Posted by Squaab99t View Post
Stock injectors are not even close to getting you to there. Stock North American 900c Bosch LH 2.2 and 2.4 came 19lbs/hr at 3 bar.
This calculator will give you an idea what you need for your goals. Assuming you can control it.
http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4

For reference I run 42lbs/hr at 3 bar, 75% duty and produce 235 whp on my 900c with a standalone engine management. Some folks use 60lbs for more headroom.

As for learning more: EFI-101 excellent 2 day class ran by EFI University.
thank you very kindly but can you please explain in a layman term?

How does what you suggested relate to me using the larger injectors? it sounds like your saying I need them in order to reach the 200-250 BHP I am looking for, yes?

Please understand i am not being obtuse I have finally gotten the car to stock specifications and am ready to make he purr a bit more.

Please elaborate in simplistic terms; sorry for my inexperience but I am new to the performance aspect, I just got the tuning in order.

thanks,,,
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Old 18th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B202NUT View Post
thank you very kindly but can you please explain in a layman term?

How does what you suggested relate to me using the larger injectors? it sounds like your saying I need them in order to reach the 200-250 BHP I am looking for, yes?

Please understand i am not being obtuse I have finally gotten the car to stock specifications and am ready to make he purr a bit more.

Please elaborate in simplistic terms; sorry for my inexperience but I am new to the performance aspect, I just got the tuning in order.

thanks,,,
Basics, it takes fuel and Oxygen to make power. To make more power you need to increase both. Lets talk fuel since your original question was on injectors. Injector are sized by flow rate. The industry standard is to have the fuel pressurized to 3 bar (about 45 psi). On a flow bench the injector is energized and held open. It will flow X lbs of fuel in one hour. Thus the term or measurement of 42lbs/hour. The fuel injection computer has a map or spreadsheet that send a signal to open the injector and stay open for a certain time, also known as duty. 100% duty is open and never closes. 50% duty is just that, 1/2 time open 1/2 time closed. There are 4 different cycles to a 4 stroke engine. Intake, Compression, Power, and Exhaust. As the engine speed increase the time or window of each of these decreases. This decrease the amount of time you have to draw the fuel into the cylinder. (About 17 milliseconds) But you need more fuel to make higher power. You can not control the window, but you can control the amount of fuel delivered, by sizing the injectors properly to support the hp goal and controlling the duty on the injector via the map within that window. This is all great for peak power, but how often do you go for pear power? What you want is driveablity in all the everyday situations. Car companies spend millions of dollars to create these maps to tackle these various conditions.
Hope this explanation helps you.
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Old 18th June 2011
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For just a gentle boost increase to give the car a little more 'pep' you wouldn't need to change the injectors. You could keep the injectors which were already on the car.

If you imagined that simply changing the injectors for the ones you got from that 9000 you mentioned at the beginning of this topic would simply increase the performance then you are wrong.

You need to turn the boost up. That will make it faster. You need to check that after increasing the boost pressure that the engine is still running safely and not about to eat itself. The best way to turn up the boost on an otherwise standard car is to tweak the APC: http://www.900aero.com/main/tech_main_apcmod.htm

All of this is technical though, so if you don't know what you're doing then get the car to someone who does and ask them to sort it out for you.
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Old 18th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squaab99t View Post
Basics, it takes fuel and Oxygen to make power. To make more power you need to increase both. Lets talk fuel since your original question was on injectors. Injector are sized by flow rate. The industry standard is to have the fuel pressurized to 3 bar (about 45 psi). On a flow bench the injector is energized and held open. It will flow X lbs of fuel in one hour. Thus the term or measurement of 42lbs/hour. The fuel injection computer has a map or spreadsheet that send a signal to open the injector and stay open for a certain time, also known as duty. 100% duty is open and never closes. 50% duty is just that, 1/2 time open 1/2 time closed. There are 4 different cycles to a 4 stroke engine. Intake, Compression, Power, and Exhaust. As the engine speed increase the time or window of each of these decreases. This decrease the amount of time you have to draw the fuel into the cylinder. (About 17 milliseconds) But you need more fuel to make higher power. You can not control the window, but you can control the amount of fuel delivered, by sizing the injectors properly to support the hp goal and controlling the duty on the injector via the map within that window. This is all great for peak power, but how often do you go for pear power? What you want is driveablity in all the everyday situations. Car companies spend millions of dollars to create these maps to tackle these various conditions.
Hope this explanation helps you.
That was far easier to undestand thank you.
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Old 18th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejenner View Post
For just a gentle boost increase to give the car a little more 'pep' you wouldn't need to change the injectors. You could keep the injectors which were already on the car.

If you imagined that simply changing the injectors for the ones you got from that 9000 you mentioned at the beginning of this topic would simply increase the performance then you are wrong.

You need to turn the boost up. That will make it faster. You need to check that after increasing the boost pressure that the engine is still running safely and not about to eat itself. The best way to turn up the boost on an otherwise standard car is to tweak the APC: http://www.900aero.com/main/tech_main_apcmod.htm

All of this is technical though, so if you don't know what you're doing then get the car to someone who does and ask them to sort it out for you.
Yes I know you made this clear for me already. I have the ability to increase the boost as the link describes and upfgrading the engine bits. What I didn't undestand is how the larger injectors would help perfromance and now I understand the lbs per hour delivery concept as explained above it makes more sense. I will start with increaing the boost, higher PR, and 3' down pipe and see if those mods tickle the fancy. If so then I will stay there, if not then we can revisit where I can get someone to remap my ECU and add larger injectors. I think I already had a referral for the ECU chip.
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