Epic Understeer - SaabCentral Forums
*
Home Saab Pictures Saab Classifieds Saab Dealer Listings Saab Forum Saab Forum


Go Back   SaabCentral Forums > Saab 9-3 SportSedan, Cabrio ('04+), Combi & 9-3X, 2003-2012 > 9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Performance Mods & Tuning - ALL ENGINES

9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Performance Mods & Tuning - ALL ENGINES Covers GENERAL Tuning & Performance modifications that are *non-engine specific* in nature

SaabCentral.com is the premier Saab Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 28th March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default Epic Understeer

Ok sooo Just got back from Autocrossing.

Even with the Alignment my car still understeers, going in and coming out of turns. Its bad with ESP off and even worse with ESP on.

What kind of solutions can I do here ? Maybe get some camber bolts for the front and adjust them extreme ?

Also in terms of XWD and ESP

ESP cuts the crap out of your engine power if it detects you pushing it to hard and doesnt like it, but when its off how does the XWD react ?

Any info on this would be great for the autoxing season
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk

Last edited by kanundrum; 28th March 2009 at 06:31 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 28th March 2009
robhurlburt's Avatar
robhurlburt robhurlburt is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Aug 2007                                                
Location: lexington, ky
My Saabs: 2003 9-3t (OOW)
Posts: 2,019
Default

esp kills the power, I have found that many times. Not sure what to do with the understeer though
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 28th March 2009
lmpreza's Avatar
lmpreza lmpreza is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2008                                                
Location: Youngstown, OH
My Saabs: 2008 9-3 Turbo X (Stage ???)
Posts: 614
Default

understeers? under acceleration???

Never heard of it!
__________________
Transport:
'08 Saab 9-3 Turbo X
'03 Yamaha YZF-R6 Turbo (yes, turbocharged.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 29th March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

lmao funny. In my Scion all I had to do was remove the front sway and voila oversteer
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 29th March 2009
phillyb's Avatar
phillyb phillyb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009                                                
Location: lala
Posts: 30
Default

remove the sway bar?
damn
did you upgrade the rear as well?
to the op - possible rear sway bar upgrade? tighter end links. that will help the rear end come around more. idk what's available for your car.
__________________
2007 mazdaspeed3
13.97 @ 104.23
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 29th March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

Nothing I think
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 29th March 2009
Topher Topher is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006                                                
Location: Minneapolis
My Saabs: Saab 9-5
Posts: 477
Default

The car does understeer, but it's more driver than car, likely.

Sounds like you are going into the corners too hot, in autox it's usually the case that you "slow down to go faster"

If I drive "fast" and really push the car (in autox) I often do much slower than if I am composed and easier on the car/go pedal.
__________________
2003 Saab 9-3SS | silver | slow | coil-overed
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 29th March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher
The car does understeer, but it's more driver than car, likely.

Sounds like you are going into the corners too hot, in autox it's usually the case that you "slow down to go faster"

If I drive "fast" and really push the car (in autox) I often do much slower than if I am composed and easier on the car/go pedal.
Great! Ill keep this in mind for next time
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 30th March 2009
cavedudejeff's Avatar
cavedudejeff cavedudejeff is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2005                                                
Location: New York City
My Saabs: 2005 9-3SS Linear
Posts: 1,381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher
The car does understeer, but it's more driver than car, likely.

Sounds like you are going into the corners too hot, in autox it's usually the case that you "slow down to go faster"

If I drive "fast" and really push the car (in autox) I often do much slower than if I am composed and easier on the car/go pedal.
Ill second that one... you're probably hitting the corners way to fast. In my 05 i don't have much understeer to worry about even though i'm FWD. Some of the various things i've had done def help in that aspect but even when I had my Linear at stock it was a lot less understeer prone than a lot of other cars I've driven.

I hope you're also not riding around the track on factory rubbers as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10  
Old 30th March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavedudejeff
Ill second that one... you're probably hitting the corners way to fast. In my 05 i don't have much understeer to worry about even though i'm FWD. Some of the various things i've had done def help in that aspect but even when I had my Linear at stock it was a lot less understeer prone than a lot of other cars I've driven.

I hope you're also not riding around the track on factory rubbers as well.
I actually am but its not tracking the car, its just a autocross in a parking lot and the factory rubber = Pirelli P0's so I am goood.
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11  
Old 31st March 2009
oravla oravla is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008                                                
Location: Chile
Posts: 18
Default

I agree with the above comments. Probably you are entering the corners to fast and accelerating to early or to heavy out of them.
But it is important to remember that most street cars will understeer at the limit because it is safer and easier to control to an average driver. Typically, front engined front wheel drive cars will understeer more because of the heavy weight in front. It's just physics.

I would recomend you to play with the tire pressures a little (it's cheap). Ussually more pressure to the front than the rear will decrease understeer. And try some trailbraking when entering a corner. That also help to reduce understeer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12  
Old 31st March 2009
Topher Topher is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006                                                
Location: Minneapolis
My Saabs: Saab 9-5
Posts: 477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanundrum
I actually am but its not tracking the car, its just a autocross in a parking lot and the factory rubber = Pirelli P0's so I am goood.

Aren't those all season tires?

As the other guy said, play with tire pressure. Jack up the tire pressure to artificially strengthen the sidewall, I would usually run 42-44 if I am on crappy tires (sorry, A/S are crappy tires)

Running summer tires (Azeni 615s) I usually run 35-38psi.

Trail braking will work. Another tactic that takes awhile to grasp is, going hard, lifting off the gas abruptly, stabbing the brakes and rotating the car.

This upsets the balance of the car and allows it to rotate easier as it induces oversteer.

It can take awhile to get this right.
__________________
2003 Saab 9-3SS | silver | slow | coil-overed
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13  
Old 31st March 2009
lmpreza's Avatar
lmpreza lmpreza is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2008                                                
Location: Youngstown, OH
My Saabs: 2008 9-3 Turbo X (Stage ???)
Posts: 614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher
Aren't those all season tires?

As the other guy said, play with tire pressure. Jack up the tire pressure to artificially strengthen the sidewall, I would usually run 42-44 if I am on crappy tires (sorry, A/S are crappy tires)

Running summer tires (Azeni 615s) I usually run 35-38psi.

Trail braking will work. Another tactic that takes awhile to grasp is, going hard, lifting off the gas abruptly, stabbing the brakes and rotating the car.

This upsets the balance of the car and allows it to rotate easier as it induces oversteer.

It can take awhile to get this right.
No, P-Zero Nero's are UHP rated tires.
__________________
Transport:
'08 Saab 9-3 Turbo X
'03 Yamaha YZF-R6 Turbo (yes, turbocharged.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14  
Old 31st March 2009
Topher Topher is offline
SaabNut!
 
Join Date: Feb 2006                                                
Location: Minneapolis
My Saabs: Saab 9-5
Posts: 477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmpreza
No, P-Zero Nero's are UHP rated tires.
Depends on what model.

They make PZero Nero All seasons.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/pirelli/pirelli-tires.jsp
__________________
2003 Saab 9-3SS | silver | slow | coil-overed
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15  
Old 31st March 2009
lmpreza's Avatar
lmpreza lmpreza is offline
Saab Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2008                                                
Location: Youngstown, OH
My Saabs: 2008 9-3 Turbo X (Stage ???)
Posts: 614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher
Depends on what model.

They make PZero Nero All seasons.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/pirelli/pirelli-tires.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....del=PZero+Nero
__________________
Transport:
'08 Saab 9-3 Turbo X
'03 Yamaha YZF-R6 Turbo (yes, turbocharged.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #16  
Old 31st March 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

its the PZero Nero Summer Tires not the All Seasons

Combined with Turning Traction Control off and Playing with Tire pressure, my time did improved by 3 seconds but I think no where near what my time should be
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #17  
Old 1st April 2009
loplop loplop is offline
Active Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009                                                
Location: Ohio
My Saabs: 2008 9-3 SportCombi Aero 6MT
Posts: 108
Default

FWD with a heavy nose can definitely be a liability on the autox course. To really compete, you'll need stickier tires, unless you stay in street tire, and even then some RE-01R's or similar will be better.

To decrease understeer without fitting a larger rear sway (which will bump you into another class), I'd try running the aforementioned 36-38 psi in the front (try some chalk on the tire to see if you're rolling onto the sidewall, increase pressure until you do not) and something like 42 psi rear. Fiddle around until you get a little better rotation in the rear.

Try "slow in fast out." This is how I have to drive my Subaru STI; that car is heavily front biased (in terms of weight) and charging the corner will simply result in "epic understeer" as you say. Going in slow and easing into the gas, at full by the apex or just beyond, will result in much faster corner exits. I suspect the Saab will drive better this way, too.

Definitely turn off ESP.
I wouldn't characterize our 9-3 Aero SC as having "epic understeer" at all, so likely some small changes in pressures and driving will help a lot.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18  
Old 1st April 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

I have a 9-3 XWD (TurboX) but coming from my FWD scion I know what you mean in terms of everything haha.
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19  
Old 1st April 2009
loplop loplop is offline
Active Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009                                                
Location: Ohio
My Saabs: 2008 9-3 SportCombi Aero 6MT
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanundrum
I have a 9-3 XWD (TurboX) but coming from my FWD scion I know what you mean in terms of everything haha.
Ah, yes (sorry I missed that), then definitely try driving it like a Scooby. STI's understeer like mad if you don't live by the "slow in fast out" rule.

Just come into the turn slow, get into the throttle a tad earlier than apex to spool, and then put it down. Let XWD sort out the traction. If it's anything like the STI you will be much faster this way.

Tweak the tire pressures, too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20  
Old 1st April 2009
kanundrum's Avatar
kanundrum kanundrum is offline
Saab Lunatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2009                                                
Location: Laurel, MD
My Saabs: 2011 Saab 9-4x
Posts: 3,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loplop
Ah, yes (sorry I missed that), then definitely try driving it like a Scooby. STI's understeer like mad if you don't live by the "slow in fast out" rule.

Just come into the turn slow, get into the throttle a tad earlier than apex to spool, and then put it down. Let XWD sort out the traction. If it's anything like the STI you will be much faster this way.

Tweak the tire pressures, too.
Awesome I will try this in 2 weeks! =D
__________________
New Whip 2011 9-4x Aero XWD
My TurboX 02/08/2009 - 8/26/2012 RIP

3" Downpipe and Midpipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ3nPLrEeRk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SaabCentral Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:59 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

top of page | sitemap | email us



copyright © 2003 - 2011 saabcentral.com, All rights reserved http://www.whiter.co.uk - valid xhtml - valid css
SaabCentral is an independently run website and is not affiliated in any way to Saab Automobile AB.


Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.