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9-3 Sedan, Cabrio ('04+)/Combi & 9-3X Performance Mods & Tuning - ALL ENGINES Covers GENERAL Tuning & Performance modifications that are *non-engine specific* in nature

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  #1  
Old 9th March 2009
rivetsaab rivetsaab is offline
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Default Why no gains from an intake?

Why do we get no gains from an aftermarket intake filter? Has I understand it, the more the engine takes in and breathes, the more power it produces. Why is this not the case with the Saabs?
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  #2  
Old 9th March 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivetsaab
Why do we get no gains from an aftermarket intake filter? Has I understand it, the more the engine takes in and breathes, the more power it produces. Why is this not the case with the Saabs?
because our stock intake is efficent at doing its job
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  #3  
Old 9th March 2009
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lmpreza lmpreza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivetsaab
Why do we get no gains from an aftermarket intake filter? Has I understand it, the more the engine takes in and breathes, the more power it produces. Why is this not the case with the Saabs?
Because most aftermarket intakes actually make the MAF tube diameter SLIGHTLY larger, causing a lean effect, and with a lean effect comes more power.

They can't do this with a Saab as it will throw a CEL and put the car in limp mode when it notices its running too lean.

Can't make the car run leaner without actually programming the computer to run it leaner.


The subaru community always poo-poo'd alot of intakes because of this, it may not be a problem in the short run but it could have long term engine problems.

Perrin made a BIG MAF intake kit, which was nice because if you were doing a high-power mod, you could scale the MAF fueling with engine management and you would have more control over airflow, since you aren't maxing out the MAF at the lower flows.
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  #4  
Old 9th March 2009
JonV JonV is offline
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A non Turbo car will realize a Gain from an Open intake, less restrictive. In a Turbo, the Turbo is what creates the pressure, it's only going to take so much air in and compress it/blend it to create Boost.
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  #5  
Old 9th March 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmpreza
The subaru community always poo-poo'd alot of intakes because of this, it may not be a problem in the short run but it could have long term engine problems.
The main reason Subaru owners don't like intakes is that if it is an oiled filter, then the oil gets sucked through in minute amounts, which then starts to clog the MAF, which eventually fails. It happens on a lot of cars, but Subarus seem particularly affected.
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  #6  
Old 9th March 2009
Sirhc Sirhc is offline
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Most aftermarket intakes do not cause an increase in hp but, they make more noise. I look at them for more of a show and no go upgrade.

AFe, I think this is them, did a air intake for the 550i and showed nice hp gain. A owner then took his car to the dyno and saw significant hp loss. The reason for the two differant results is that AFe did it's dyno with the hood open while the owner did his dyno with it closed. Talks of a class action lawsuit opened up and now AFe is now taking returns.
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  #7  
Old 9th March 2009
TrainBrad69 TrainBrad69 is offline
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How can you make the engine more efficient so it can realize a gain from running leaner in the turbo? Can I do this with the CPU or what else would I have to change with the MAF. Also, am I doing damage to my car when it goes into limp mode?
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  #8  
Old 9th March 2009
ctrlz ctrlz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainBrad69
How can you make the engine more efficient so it can realize a gain from running leaner in the turbo?
This is not as easy as it sounds.

Short term gains may be realized from running leaner. In the long term, the ECM will compensate for any minor lean condition by adjusting the fuel trim. So ultimately any gains realized in the short term are negated.

The above applies to closed loop modes. Open loop will still run lean. The problem there is open loop modes are the ones where you want to err on the side of richness to prevent engine damage.

You don't need to be an expert to realize there is no power to be had from this mod. If that were the case, the respectable Saab tuning companies would all be selling an intake and posting the HP gain on their web sites.

Additionally, any intake which corrupts the MAF data will affect all the engine load calculations, as air mass is the main indicator of load. Spark timing will also be retarded. Run lean --> Greater air mass --> ECM thinks engine load is greater than it really is --> spark timing is retarded.
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  #9  
Old 10th January 2010
LAN LAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonV View Post
A non Turbo car will realize a Gain from an Open intake, less restrictive. In a Turbo, the Turbo is what creates the pressure, it's only going to take so much air in and compress it/blend it to create Boost.
Wouldn't the turbo suck more air from a properly placed CAI than from a closed tight box?
..unless there's already an air injection into the box.

From the looks of the way the CAI are built for mine, I don't think I'll even bother. I really like that idea of air injection into the box. I haven't gotten a chance to really look around my car. It's like 10'F outside and my garage is quite occupied.

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  #10  
Old 11th January 2010
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cavedudejeff cavedudejeff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAN View Post
Wouldn't the turbo suck more air from a properly placed CAI than from a closed tight box?
..unless there's already an air injection into the box.

From the looks of the way the CAI are built for mine, I don't think I'll even bother. I really like that idea of air injection into the box. I haven't gotten a chance to really look around my car. It's like 10'F outside and my garage is quite occupied.
Do some more research on the T8 system and turbo systems and you'll understand. Don't really feel like typing out the entire thing. Too tired.
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  #11  
Old 11th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAN View Post
Wouldn't the turbo suck more air from a properly placed CAI than from a closed tight box?
..unless there's already an air injection into the box.

From the looks of the way the CAI are built for mine, I don't think I'll even bother. I really like that idea of air injection into the box. I haven't gotten a chance to really look around my car. It's like 10'F outside and my garage is quite occupied.

With a turbocharged car, the ECU specifies how much air to use. The MAF can tell how many grams of air, and the MAP can tell at what pressure it is being provided. So, if you have a "restrictive" intake, the turbo just boosts higher.

If you open the intake, the turbo will spool sooner. (until the ECU adapts the wastegate back to where it wants it)

If you get a better intercooler you will run lower temps on the intake air charge, and more timing (until the ECU adapts and just runs less boost to compensate for the denser air)

You can't make your car run more power, you have to change the ECU so it wants to make more power.
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  #12  
Old 11th January 2010
LAN LAN is offline
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The wastegate can be swamped and there's nothing the ecu can do about it.
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  #13  
Old 11th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAN View Post
The wastegate can be swamped and there's nothing the ecu can do about it.
Sure it can. It'll try to dump excess anyway, and if it can't, it'll simply retard timing. If that doesn't work, it'll go into limp-mode.
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  #14  
Old 11th January 2010
saab19 saab19 is offline
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ECU = god on modern cars.
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  #15  
Old 11th January 2010
LAN LAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saab19 View Post
ECU = god on modern cars.
I must've forgotten that we're in 2010 already.
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