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  #1  
Old 19th October 2008
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Lightbulb 2 x Introductions & A CHALLENGE

Hello to the SAAB Central crowd. I'm a Peugeot 205 GTI fan who has just finished his 2.2 litre Mi16 hybrid project, and is already planning his next B234R powerplant based project. My 205 is on Emerald with Yamaha R1 bodies, and should be good for 240bhp.....in a car that weighs the same as a takeaway curry tray .

I'm new to your forum, usually frequenting the 205GTI Drivers' site, but already from what I've read on here, you guys seem to be the kind I like; helpful, mature, but nicely twisted too.

Here is the link http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...howtopic=96496 to my proposed project thread on that forum. I hope you can access it.

For those who don't want to click & read through it: I've always planned something RWD and stoopid using the Saab 9000's 2.3ltr 16v turbo engine, after I saw Jeremy Clarkson be amazed by its oomph on Top Gear.

Now I've done some reading on here, Wikipedia and elsewhere and this is what I plan. Below are the areas where I challenge your grey matter and helpfulness to offer some sound advice:
  1. BMW E30 shell stripped bare, strengthened & caged, complete with rolling components such as prop, half shafts, diff & brakes suitable for circa 400-500bhp, courtesy of the below lump vvv
  2. B324R block (which I believe has the steel/Mahle internals & is fairly bomb proof & is also known as T(rionic) 5 build) coupled to a (9-3 Viggen) T7 head. Throttle bodies, VGT (Variable Vane Geometry Turbo) and custom exhaust system, all mated to a 2.5V6 GM Omega gearbox.
Now I've read stuff like this http://www.strikeengine.com/saab-tun...ing-guide.html, which is most helpful and almost seems too simple, and with many things performance, just a matter of how deep your pockets are . Here are my questions, please see how you can help:
  1. Please advise intially on the feasability of the above basic spec, i.e. (and I got this from here BTW), that the T7 head flows better and fits straight onto the T5 block.
  2. Whether it's possible by machining and swapping con rods to up the displacement to perhaps 2.5 or 2.6ltr?
  3. Whether the Trionic 7 ECU & SDI package (with the ionization trickery etc) is now suitably 'cracked' for chipping/mapping purposes?
  4. Will the gearbox handle the power & how easy is it to get hold of the T7 head & management and a decent 9000/Aero T5 engine? IN SHORT, I HAVE MONEY AVAILABLE & AM LOOKING TO BUY .
So I apologise if I've waffled a little, or taken any Saab tuning advice out of context and made some mistakes. I need your help as I'm after creating a track and rally car which is perfectly usable on the road. The reason for example for suggesting the VGT - and they are used now on the Porsche 997 and some diesels, just like they were on cars as old as the Peugeot 405 T16 - is to avoid lag at all costs and obtain smooth but monstrous torque delivery. Twin turbos, parallel or sequential, or even in conjunction with a supercharger are just more plumbing, more complexity, more to go wrong and of course more weight.

I'd rather spend slightly more on one component to get it right, despite it meaning I try something new. We have to move on eh? On that, I want to source all parts cleverly and sneekily, such as parts from other cars.

I look forward to being part of this forum and hearing your comments.

RICH

Last edited by DrSarty; 19th October 2008 at 02:29 PM.
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  #2  
Old 19th October 2008
Norman Lovie Norman Lovie is offline
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no need to bore, the 2.3 will manage over 500 as it is, and a decent turbo

T7 is now fully home tunable as well as T5, I can,t see any obvious reason to go T5 versus T7 other than use the T7 APC valve and that little tweak is well covered go to http://forum.ecuproject.com/viewforu...cc48feed241fca and talk with these guy,s

T7 head, yes it seemingly flows better, but it has been known to drop the odd valve ( stems are 2mm narrower than T5 I think) ref: high rpm, a T5 head can be worked if your going over say 380hp, but otherwise a good set of cams on a std head will take you over 400, see http://saablink.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26391 that,ll keep you reading for a while, and the car is not too shabby either
2.3 versus 2litre hmmm again depends what you want, a 2litre around 350 bhp with a short box, beefed up valve springs and a cam to see you passed 7000 rpm, c/w lightened flwheel etc.. = one heck of a usable track car, don,t know just how much sharper on the rpm climb the 2litre versus the 2.3 would be, but worth investigating, anyway you can have both, block n heads the same

but for sure keep us posted - SAAB into BMW has been done go to u-tube and type in BMW M3 SAAB
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  #3  
Old 19th October 2008
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Thanks for the answer Lovie. It's a good feeling knowing that the B234R's internals really are so good that in effect your advice (and perhaps others') will mean money I could've wasted upping displacement can be spent on:

a) improving turbo throttle response and power delivery
b) improving engine reliability
c) improving rolling chassis suspension geometry, steering and brakes

I'm also now realising that my idea of ITBs is practically idiotic, UNLESS, like a Nissan Pulsar GTI-R (and I'm sure other motors too), I enclose the ITBs in a plenum for the turbo to feed. DOH! Anyway, that sounds an area to spend the money on instead of over-boring and stroking, and plan on getting complete reliability, tractability and smoothness rather than just peak power.

On the latter - and I'm terribly sorry if I offend someone being so new to this forum, but you will find as a British Soldier I'm brutally honest - the ECU (geeky) forum is exactly what I'm after, technical, deep & mucho useful.

The 600hp thread just bored the tits off me because it was mostly 'gay', useless chat about tattoos, 'sick wheels' and how unreliable his installation was. Each to their own I suppose.

Thanks for the decent technical replies and redirects.

*Notes that he has now probably alienated 46.3% of the forum*

Ooops
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  #4  
Old 19th October 2008
ylee coyote ylee coyote is offline
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the 234r is a very strong engine as is
the rev limit is down to the hydraulic valve followers and practical limit is 7k

solid lifters will take it much higher and there are mad swedes at 9k
If you want a revver start with the 2 litre and you can make big power with this engine too ..not many people have done this tho

The T7 head is thought to be a little "soft" and there are some tales of valve breaks
the T5 can be ported to give 500 hp easily and it will be more robust
If you are refurbing the engine anyway i would go for this and as big valves as can be squeezed in
While refurbing the bottom end I would balance the crank and matchweight the pistons all good for longeivity and smoothness no need for forged pistons or steel rods but I would shot peen them to stress relieve them

if 7k is ok I would recommend stronger valve springs especially if you are running a wilder cam
rebuild with new chains and you have an engine that can give 500+ and last another 200k

good luck !
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  #5  
Old 20th October 2008
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Thanks again, another excellent and informative reply.

So my plan is shaping up for an engine to work on over Christmas.

Queries marked (?)

Std 2.3 B234R internals
Con-rods shot peened
Pistons match-weighted
Crank balanced
(?) Bores re-honed (?)
(?) Slight decking (?)

2.3 B234R (T5) Head
Ported & (?) I guess gas-flowed (?) - I may use Mark Shillaber for this or does anyone have a UK, Cambridgeshire recommendation?
(?) What cams - manufacturer & spec - for tractable road use & safe revving to 8,500rpm (?)
Solid lifters - (?) need a supplier please (?)
(?) Are std cam pullies adjustable, do they need to be, is it possible to fit verniers (?)
Uprated/stiffer valve springs - (?) need a supplier please (?)
(?) What larger valves can be installed, are triple-cut valve seats a good idea, and who can do this big valve work please (?)
Uprated cam chains - (?) need a supplier please (?)

Hopefully you guys can steer me in the right direction for the above items to specify, TO BUY and to get on with working on over Christmas.

Please also let me know what if any of the above components you have to sell. I'd buy preferably a complete bottom end to learn the strip, but I'll also consider buying each item separately if it helps free up space in your garages, i.e. a block on its own.

Regards from Afghanistan

RICH

Last edited by Stefano; 21st October 2008 at 06:04 PM.
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  #6  
Old 20th October 2008
Norman Lovie Norman Lovie is offline
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Keep in mind, when looking for an enginelow pressure turbo, full pressure turbo, Aero, doesn,t matter they are all the same engine
2ltr versus 2.3, varation is just the rods crank and I think piston ( block n bore n head are the same)

Noted your in touch with Trig, he knows Dave Greenwood of http://www.saabflight.com/ very well Dave has done a lot of interesting stuff with the 9000 including converting from hydraulic to mechanical lifters for serious high rpm fun, well worth contacting Dave for a chat

the 9000 engines are extreamly flexable with regards to what, how and where you want to go with them, torque versus BHP, where you want the torque, power band spread etc. Its the choice of turbo that is the primary driver with respect to what you end up with.
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  #7  
Old 20th October 2008
skint skint is offline
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Oh - this is an interesting thread. Not sure what the planned power outputs are? I am assuming 'lots'. Tell us what you want in delivery and we'll take a stab at the best config. Not sure on budget either...

I think I have some of your Qs in here... but I havent opened up my block so others can advise on those bits.

One thing to note: You can have any B234 car, the block and head are the same. The B234R is specific to the Aero and R = TD04 turbo bolt on.
B234L had the Garret T25 turbo. i.e. you have a decent wide choice of engines to pick bits from.

I have been messing about with the GT3071r turbo on the T5 setup with some decent results so far: (I'm faero there)

Here's my thread:
http://www.uksaabs.eu/UKS/viewtopic....=29048&start=0

I went for the 0.64 housing to keep spool up early and still get 400bhp. I think I might have just scraped 400bhp (on a good day...) and 400ft lbs but the issue is that the 0.64 housing has a good dose of backpressure at high rpm so I can't squeeze any more.
You can resolve this by running the Enem 264 9.6 cams aka Maptun 268s..(stock T5 240 8.65) with uprated springs and adjustable verniers.
This liberates the flow and nets about 450bhp crank.

Alternative is to go with the 0.86 housing (talking internal WG here) and stick with the standard T5 cams. I should have maybe done this as I would still have got to about 420-440bhp for less outlay.

The cams turn it into a fun engine though... but needs to run above 3k rpm to get anything on the power band. (still very low rpm compared to an Mi16 engine though). I had sworn I wouldnt fit them but currently heading that way!
Only Enem in Sweden make the new cams. I was very close to going with re-profiled cams (260 9.2) but got cold feet at whether they were worth the hassle and decided that I should save for the 'right/proven' setup. Still fishing about for cheaper sources of cams. Genuine Saab in the US do the Enems for $768 but hassle+ exchange rates don't help that. If you could find a source of saab cam blanks then you'd be on a winner I suspect.
The Enems are 450+vat from Maptun in the UK. Sob.

Here is the cam list :

http://www.maptun.com/shopCategory.p...114&cg=100#114

Also Enem
http://www.enem.se/kamaxlar.asp
Click 'Webshop' to see the listings. You can see there are more looney cams than the 264s but I believe that moving to the 276 starts to hurt idling etc. Depends what you want.

Cheapest uprated springs available:
http://www.genuinesaab.com/catalog/a...7940ca4c3ebe7c

As for the rest of the build, you'll need to support with

Siemens Deka 630cc injectors (up to about 480bhp iirc) or RC 750cc
Walbro 255 lph fuel pump
Nice big I/C
3" downpipe from the turbo back

Plenty of help at ecuproject for the mapping if you want to DIY it ( I can help if you want a little too). And Maptun will do a fantastic job if you want to get it done by a pro.

For other info. I like this list:
http://www.maptun.com/customers.php

Lets you see what different people are running and how the setups vary.

Keep us posted!!

Phil

PS - I have a B234 head sitting in the garage - PM if you are interested.

Last edited by skint; 20th October 2008 at 07:06 AM.
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  #8  
Old 20th October 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSarty

Queries marked (?)

Std 2.3 B234R internals
Con-rods shot peened
Pistons match-weighted
Crank balanced
(?) Bores re-honed (?)
(?) Slight decking (?)
Rich, going to hop in here and address one of your questions:

with regard to decking, are you interested in doing so to raise compression ratio, or to ensure a flat surface for head gasket mating? If it's for the former, I'd think that you'd want to keep the CR low to better tolerate the massive amount of squeeze you're planning.

Otherwise, I can't imagine a millimeter or two compromising anything, unless those more knowledgeable than I have info on how our blocks handle that kind of machining...
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  #9  
Old 20th October 2008
ylee coyote ylee coyote is offline
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I would get it decked and the cylinders honed (if they need it ) deglazing more like....

I had the engine work on mine done by CTM performance

they did all the sourcing of valves/valve springs and did a fantastic job of preparing the engine for re-building (speak to charlie)

I got a Saab specialist to re-build the engine and again great job done by west midland saab specialist (speak to big john)

70k and 485 hp kinda proves how good they were ...
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Old 21st October 2008
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And the greatest Saab minds all converge in the place we call "happiness"
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  #11  
Old 21st October 2008
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DrSarty DrSarty is offline
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Talking

But do you have anything to add Aero?

Tech talk & advice only please. I'm already feeling full of morale about this bad boy . Now aiming to max out the 630cc injectors at 485bhp; that's plenty.

Smooth delivery, non-existant lag and 8k revving on the cards for a 2.3 is the challenge, with bomb-proof reliability and comfortable road use.

Budget is 3k engine, 2k rolling shell. But this is a budget not a target!
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Old 21st October 2008
ylee coyote ylee coyote is offline
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emmm

your budget might be a bit optimistic

if you want to do it for this kind of money you will have to do some of the stuff yourself

maxing out the injectors at 485 ? not quite
they have a bit more to give... in mine fredrik reckons another 50 or so hp is available and that would not be at 100 % duty cycle
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  #13  
Old 21st October 2008
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Oh - that was me - I thought the 630's ran out about there safely but I know a few have pushed past 500 with them.

GT3071R 0.86 , Enem 264 cams (Maptun 268) will get you to 470bhp I suspect and seems to be a good solution.

You can keep a tight budget but it means loads of endless surfing and if you take a look at the current exchange rates, where I bought a lot of stuff from US, (eg GT3071r for 550), it's now knocking on 700 so better to buy in UK again.... Anyway - impact across multiple parts is significant.
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Old 27th October 2008
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Thumbs up

OK, the acquisition of knowledge is surpassing the acquisition of parts, which is good, because it should mean what I get is correct, and right cheekily priced.

Here on the Peugeot forum is an update, http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...ic=96496&st=30 but below is a brief summary of the evolved plan:

Now going to LPG the bugger, which means I can deck the block or skim or both if nec to run a higher CR. This means any time spent slightly off boost won't be too painful.

My good buddy in Cambridge has links to not only an LPG specialist with a rolling road who gets really stuck into odd projects, but people at Safety devices for a 'friend price', clever roll cage for the NOW E36 Beamer chassis.

Another contact in King's Lynn is apparently a font of all E36 handling knowledge, but his knowledge and the LPG guy's nouse comes at a cost, hence...

Use of Volvo rear axle and diff

Turbo(s) being chosen and possibly supplied via a friend with loads of uber techy turbo friends at a forced induction specialist previously known as Cosworth.

Nissan Pulsar GTIR throttle bodies (50) but with LPG injectors fitted

E36 325is coupe has M-tech suspension as standard which will at least get me moving, with a good rack, or indeed a Z3 rack which apparently is the current choice of BMW track rats. Beamer waiting in wings at 200 .

And I have a Trionic 5 (B234) head complete with cams & pullies for playing with, aka big valves, solid lifters, verniers and full port and polish, and I hear polishing is ideal for LPG fuelling. (65)

So all is going well folks. The final glory is a Saab specialist near Cambridge who I believe is keen to help me and may source the 9000 2.3ltr bottom end I need (post '94 to match up with my 2.5V6 *free* Omega gearbox), as I don't need either exhaust, turbo or inlet systems from it, just block and internals.

Feeling lucky!

Rich
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  #15  
Old 27th October 2008
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LPG sounds interesting too - V-power is rated at about 99-100 octane - I think LPG is about 105 - maybe more. So you can pump up the boost.

i.e. Make sure it's Really worth it if you are to spend an extra money on it. Although the LPG is cheaper, it doesnt half chew threw the stuff as far as I can see....

Have you had any thoughts on your turbo for this?
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  #16  
Old 2nd November 2008
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Do you plan on using the Omega 'box as standard? Or will it be getting uprated? I have a feeling that it might not last long at that sort of power/the use I'd be hoping for .........

Personally I'd be looking into using maybe something along the lines of a Cosworth T5 with a bell housing adapter machined up.
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