16i `vert conversion to turbo `vert

[KurBads]

Hi guys,

I`m currently am looking for a convertible. Sure, I want turbo ...
However, to what I have is - either `88 Turbo with "16 wheels and airflow kit
OR `91 injection (no turbo present) with crosspoke wheels and no aero kit.
BUT - first one goes for 6500 (maybe I can get him down a bit) eur while 2nd goes for 3500 eur.
Thats quite a difference.

Now I`m thinking that that could be possible to add-on the turbo on the 16i car.
I know that about compression ratios, maybe find aero kit.

I know turbo`ing is possible, but what`s really involved. Does ECU differ, does dizzy needs to be changed or it can run same EZK ignition?

Turbo is bolt on once I have turbo manifold, turbo itself and downpipe. It doesn`t need any wiring. APC is easy, I`ve done that ... some juice, tach signal, knock sensor and solenoid ...

It could run on moderate boost levels as I would retain higher compression ratio of an n/a ... it would provide more torque on low revs, knock senseor and APC would keep things safe ...

What is my "missing link" there - it`s the need to change ECU and ignition + wiring.

Could anyone give some advice on this.

I know it`s much easier to buy proper turbo from start and probably I`ll at the end do that.
But I just am thinking if that 2500-3000 EUR saving would give me enough to add things up (turbo, aeros skirts) ...?

[Albert Trout]

Buy the 900i and then get a turbo engine, wiring loom & ECU and swap them over. Easiest way to do it. If you really want to turbo-fy an injection, then yes it can be done. There's a sticky in the performance & mods forum.

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

I know it`s much easier to buy proper turbo from start and probably I`ll at the end do that.
But I just am thinking if that 2500-3000 EUR saving would give me enough to add things up (turbo, aeros skirts) ...?

It's worth talking to your insurance, too - they may regard a turbo-converted i as a modified car and charge more than for a factory turbo.

[AUSSIE900]

First thing that strikes me here is that you couldnt run EZK and APC in tandem .

The Ezk adjusts timing based on its own Knock sensor .

I may be wrong but I think that would be a conflict .

Would it not be better to remove the EZK system all together ? Get a dizzy with the hall , a seperate ignition amplifier and coil as opposed to the combo unit the EZK uses .
Then run BASE boost to compensate Compression .

I have used a swapped ECU ( 89 turbo v na ) I didnt detect any issue BUT am not saying there may not be issues or damage done . I dont know .

[Albert Trout]

Originally Posted by AUSSIE900

The Ezk adjusts timing based on its own Knock sensor .

I may be wrong but I think that would be a conflict .

Would it not be better to remove the EZK system all together ? Get a dizzy with the hall , a seperate ignition amplifier and coil as opposed to the combo unit the EZK uses .
Then run BASE boost to compensate Compression .

There'd be no conflict with the timing as the APC doesn't do anything with the timing but the fuelling would be way off as would the timing maps. You'd have to get a turbo ECU. Like I said, if you really want to do it, then it can be done but as you'd need a donor turbo engine & ECU etc. then why not just swap the whole shebbang?

[AUSSIE900]

Thanks Albert , Its what I meant when I said conflict , The ezk would be retarding or advancing ignition timing whilst at the same time APC would be making compensations via Fuel . As you said Mapping would be way out .


I understand that the shebang swap is the best option . ( full boost etc ) But ,, Would it not work to install a dizzy with internal based hall , along with the appropriate ign amp and coil . ( stabilise ignition timing ) eliminate ezk adjustment . and fit the APC. I am guessing it would work , but I may be missing something .

Re the ECU , again , I dont know if it would have any long term effects , but I have used an ECU ex an 89 EZK in an 89 Turbo . It worked , but was only done as a test of the ecu .

[KurBads]

APC is just an add-on to listen to knock and moderate the boost level ... nothing to do with fueling or ignition.

Fueling - ECUs differ, OK. But whats different - does/and how ECU follows boost pressure - I guess it doesn`t, fuel is addjusted just by AMM readings, throttle position switch and lambda ... so, where`s the difference between ECUs? Is it just the fuel map that is different?

Ignition - EZK advances and retards, turbo dizzy just retards. So, I eliminate EZK and add-on turbo dizzy? That`s all?

Do you think that 2500 eur is worth this hassle, in addition taking into account that I don`t have a donor, would need to hunt the parts on the net, no good local breakers known. Also "16 wheels and airflow kit makes over 1000 EUR in value ...

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

Do you think that 2500 eur is worth this hassle, in addition taking into account that I don`t have a donor, would need to hunt the parts on the net, no good local breakers known. Also "16 wheels and airflow kit makes over 1000 EUR in value ...

Given that you spent the other week trying to decide if you could live with a convertible, it sounds like a good plan to me. Buy this n/a, live with it over the summer, then sit down in the Autumn and figure out which option you want to take...

- n/a is fine.
- upgrade this car.
- sell this car and buy a turbo 'vert.
- a 'vert isn't for you.

If it's the third or fourth, you probably won't have any difficulty in selling this car again. If it's the second, you've got the winter to do the work, when you won't be looking at the weather and muttering.

[KurBads]

Originally Posted by TooMany2cvs

Given that you spent the other week trying to decide if you could live with a convertible, it sounds like a good plan to me. Buy this n/a, live with it over the summer, then sit down in the Autumn and figure out which option you want to take...

- n/a is fine.
- upgrade this car.
- sell this car and buy a turbo 'vert.
- a 'vert isn't for you.

If it's the third or fourth, you probably won't have any difficulty in selling this car again. If it's the second, you've got the winter to do the work, when you won't be looking at the weather and muttering.

well,

I know that I`ll not be satisfied with n/a (owning FPT 3-door) ... OK, it`s a `vert, not meant to race but calmly cruise ... well, I don`t know ...

I`m not sure if I have enough courage to undertake turbo`ying. It should not be impossible with all the parts neede tho`

aero kit I need, I own `89 c900 8i "plane jane", no aero skirts, bumpers ... and any time I look at it it`s obvious that kit is lacking.

On the other hand, is almost 2x the price and I guess selling that n/a for the same could be possible.

I`m not sure what to do, I`m off to have a look on the n/a shortly. Will see what it looks in person.
And then it depends if `88 guy will be showing any flexibility as to the price.

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

I`m not sure if I have enough courage to undertake turbo`ying. It should not be impossible with all the parts neede tho`

There's only one way to find out, right? Look at Woy's recent headgasket voyage of discovery...

aero kit I need, I own `89 c900 8i "plane jane", no aero skirts, bumpers ... and any time I look at it it`s obvious that kit is lacking.

Mmm. That's a personal preference thing - I'm happy that my black T16 is _without_ the tupperware. I think it looks classier.

[KurBads]

well, I`ve seen it (the `91 n/a)

it has some minor surface rust on drivers door and a bit more of it on the body where doors fit closed (vertically and also on the bottom). Starngely this rust does appear only on LH side (driver`s side).
The engine (cold) did produce quite some laud tapping noise that went away after some 10 min iddling (I suppose those were hydraulic lifters - does it mean leak or losse of pressure in the lubrication system?). I think there were some timing chain noise also that got better after warming up.

but it`s n/a. EZK. It does have however GM 45714 gearbox (type 7 primaries - strange to me for an n/a car).
The power steering malfunction - when turning the wheel it groaned and jerked the wheel (as partially pumping and partially not - like duh, duh, duh ...) - it ws low on steering oil, it was hardly showing up on the expansion tank - it was pumped, so the fluid was thrown up and mixed (I guess with air) so that it looked like orange foam, some rust/orange color ...
Could it be that just the fluid was low or would that indicate faulty steering rack?

the bumpers - definately needing work, top, two identical holes on both sides - I guess from rubbing against folding mechanism - top needs to be changed.

colour (code 200) in pretty bad shape, respray would be good.

So, that`s the news. Still - it`s 2500 cheaper than `88 16T (zero rust. "16 wheels, airflow ...)
What now?

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

So, that`s the news. Still - it`s 2500 cheaper than `88 16T (zero rust. "16 wheels, airflow ...)
What now?

Buy the turbo, by the sound of it. The n/a sounds like it'd need a chunk of money to get it to the same standard, and that's before you convert it to turbo.

[KurBads]

Originally Posted by TooMany2cvs

Buy the turbo, by the sound of it. The n/a sounds like it'd need a chunk of money to get it to the same standard, and that's before you convert it to turbo.

yes, the n/a needs that rust to be tackled, so at least partial respray (maybe DIY). Then bumpers. Then (unknown) steering rack. Wery loud engine when cold. And the MISSING TURBO.

p.s. two c900 I own both have tan interior (one in black car, another in scarabee green) and that `88 turbo also has tan. Now this n/a have black (or al least dark grey leather and black dash/trim. I would say that black interior took grabbed my eye even if it was not cleaned or cared of for 2+ years (had sat in garage). I mean, black interior seemed quite nice (imagine that monte carlo yellow with black insides ...).

p.s. II - there`s an 1992 monte carlo T16 `vert for sale with 160 000 kms on it. Guy asks 14 500 EUR on website, and would ultimately give it away for 12 000 EUR as his min price. It does have additional "16 aero wheels `tho ...
Well, see ... there`s some nice cars out for sure, but those prices (at least here in contineltal europe) are crazy. There`s 1993 T16 aero `vert for 10 500 EUR, was one for 17 000 EUR, one even for 24 000 EUR (they claimed it was fully restored) - I wander if those people ever sell these cars ...
Me, if I`m looking for a `vert and am ready to part with 6 500 EUR this seems alreday awfull lot for 20 year old car (comapred to 1900 eur for my hardtop), but c`mon - 12 000, 17 000, 24 000 ???

I guess those are some wealthy guys in their mid age who have had those cars for years, went always to official SAAB garages and have decided to take a new SAAB but don`t have a need to get rid of the old so fast ...
That 14 500 dropped to 12 000 EUR when I offered 8 000, one from 9500 dropped to 8300 when I offered 6500 ...
That`s the price for "no roof" over here ...

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

Me, if I`m looking for a `vert and am ready to part with 6 500 EUR this seems alreday awfull lot for 20 year old car (comapred to 1900 eur for my hardtop)

You've got to get past this "But it's a 20yo car". No, it's not. It's a classic. The value is going up, not down. Is the value of an E-type Jag set by it's age? Or an Audi Quattro? Sure, I'm not claiming that a c900 'vert is in their leagues - but a good c900 is already worth more than an equivalent NG900, and that gap's only going to get wider.

Is €6500 a lot for THAT car in YOUR market? I don't know. But it doesn't sound like it, because you can't find better cheaper.

That`s the price for "no roof" over here ...

No, it's the price for a c900 with no roof...

There's always the newer NG900, of course...
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=330236304843
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=110250179616
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=280224459496
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=330234206053

Or...
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=300219829796

[KurBads]

Originally Posted by TooMany2cvs

No, it's the price for a c900 with no roof...

There's always the newer NG900, of course...
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=330236304843
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=110250179616
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=280224459496
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=330234206053

Or...
http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI...m=300219829796

you`re right, it`s "c900 NO roof", 900NG and even 9-3OG can be bought cheaper than those "20 yo cars"

I`d really would like to see how many of and in what time those 8,9,10,12,17k EUR cars find their new homes. I think there`s not so much of people who are happy to spend this kind of money and get that 20yo car. I mean, that will always be an old car with it`s niggles ... I`m not sure if "richies" would tolerate that. Of course, if one gets fuly restored (e.g. MISU`s kinda car) thats another story ...

Sure, there`s not that much of classic 900 left, even less (more special) `verts. But to mee it seems ther`s not a great demand for them for this kind of money ...

Anyway, I`m happy c900 excelently keep their value, I wish that for one day the prices drop (the day I`m in the market after one ) and then they may go sky high again.

I`m thinkig as well if to sell my `89 c900 8i "plane jane" after (if) I buy a `vert ... the same - it will definately sit without use but then - it will no use it`s value if will not rust away. But I guess sitting (even if in shelter) is not good for any car and if I can not see myself using it at least from time to time, it`s better to give it away.

[thesaabologist]

I have both a 3 door T16 and 900i vert. Different horses for courses - even in basic injection form, the engine is already too powerful for the chasis and really roof up/down anything over 80mph is too noisy/windy (even with a deflector) - so the injection is fine for summer cruising, the only down side is the lack of occasional overtaking umpf. You could of course go for the LPT half way house.

[KurBads]

now I have:

- `88 cherry red/tan leather T16 airflow `vert with 221k kms
- `93 aubergine/light tan (more grey/white than tan) 16lpt + factory IC `vert with 150k kms

both are ~ the same price. `88 will have NEW turbo.

there are some rust issues (one big rust spot on passanger`s door bottom; bubble at the bottom of winshield) on `93. It has no hard cover for roof while `88 does have. lpt also have type 6 gearbox while T16 type 7.

What would you take and why. Is there anything why I should take `93 over `88? Apart from year, Mitsu earlier-spooling turbo ...? I do not like that aubergine (241) colour as well. `93 has pretty quiet engine and smooth box. `88 doesn`t have any problem switching as well tho` ...

I`m leaning towards `88 ... but will see how it turns out with new turbo as before I test-drive it, it didn`t take almost any boost only when revving hard and only in 4rd gear.

[TooMany2cvs]

Originally Posted by KurBads

there are some rust issues (one big rust spot on passanger`s door bottom; bubble at the bottom of winshield) on `93.

Ewww. That - especially the bubble below the 'screen - would be enough to tip me away from that car. Convertibles have a bonded 'screen, so you're going to have to get the screen removed and a new one professionally fitted to get new metal let into the surround.

Any closer pics of those bits?

[Albert Trout]

Originally Posted by KurBads

What would you take and why. Is there anything why I should take `93 over `88? Apart from year, Mitsu earlier-spooling turbo ...? I do not like that aubergine (241) colour as well. `93 has pretty quiet engine and smooth box. `88 doesn`t have any problem switching as well tho` ...

'93's got a stronger gearbox with less miles on it.

Not mad keen on the silver stripe down the airflow kit but I suppose that's personal taste. It's not like c900's are strange to you, so if I were you I'd trust my instincts as to which one's better from a mechanical point of view.

As far as rust goes, I don't even notice rust on the doors of a c900, I expect it. Got a picture of the bubble around the windscreen?

[KurBads]

you can see rust bubble in this pic just at the bottom of windshield. It doesn`t look that bad from outside but I fear that once taken off it could reveal much bigger damaged area ...