Rebuilding Engine, Suggestions Wanted.

[demoniac]

Hi all,

Been a while since I've been on here. I bought an '03 Mercedes C32 AMG for my primary driver so the Saab's been put up in my garage for work.

Planning on rebuilding the engine and I can have the car offline for a while since it's not my primary. My goal is 500hp at the crank. More is okay of course.

All I've got in mind at this point is getting a used 2.3 block, some new forged pistons and connecting rods. A question I had here is that you can get 93mm pistons but that's a pretty damn good overbore... I was curious how close I'll be getting to the water jackets and if it's even worth the risk. It would calculate out to a 2445cc though.

Other than that I was thinking stiffer valve springs and SS valves. I was thinking about a higher duration/lift camshaft but not sure how well that will work out on a turbo engine.

Just trying to spark some general conversation to get ideas.

Thanks guys,
Rich

[white96850turbo]

Sounds like you'll have quite a beast once your done . What are you planning on doing with the trans, turbo and head?

Originally Posted by demoniac

Hi all,

I was thinking about a higher duration/lift camshaft but not sure how well that will work out on a turbo engine.

Thanks guys,

Rich

Several of some Volvo guys put NA cams in there turbo because of the greater lift and it worked well in those cars.....

[Corn Cob]

I have been curious about the cam thing too, nobody seems willing to give it a go. I would but I had to by gas with change today, so I am in no finacial position to take on a project like this. It sounds interesting but who knows maybe one turbo and one N/A cam? I hope your project works out for you. Use water meth injection and a big holset turbo.

[saabkid37]

um have you guys not been on genuinesaab.com lately?

nick now sells two different sets of cams made by enem.

[mike saunders]

500 crank HP is doable...

Stock 2.3L block bored out .5mm over (~.020)
Forged pistons
Stock crank and rods
Siemens Deka 750cc injectors
Uprated fuel pump (One Bosch Motorsport 044 pump might handle it, but just barely. You might want to run two in series)
GT30 or GT35 turbo
Cams and stronger valve springs

Programming to make it all work.....

[lowbudgethero]

talk to a tuner and chat it up

[demoniac]

Thanks for the replies everybody. Exactly why I came here first.

Originally Posted by white96850turbo

Sounds like you'll have quite a beast once your done . What are you planning on doing with the trans, turbo and head?

I'm still up in the air on the trans. There's a shop in NJ which specializes rebuilding auto trans to hold higher power. I'm going to get a quote on that but if it's too much I'm just going to convert to a manual. Only option there is the 5-speed, right? I've seen mention of a 6-speed for cobalts...will that fit?

Turbo I was thinking GT35R. The maps on that are pretty impressive... Head I'm not sure about just yet.

Originally Posted by saabkid37

um have you guys not been on genuinesaab.com lately?

nick now sells two different sets of cams made by enem.

You can get a whole host of them through Maptun. What I was really asking was whether or not they're a good thing. My understanding is that you get a more aggressive camshaft to promote scavenging...But a turbo engine is going to have excessive back pressure over an NA engine which could lead to an intake/exhaust fight if the valve timing overlaps at all which would actually reduce power. At least that's how I thought it worked.

Originally Posted by mike saunders

500 crank HP is doable...

Stock 2.3L block bored out .5mm over (~.020)
Forged pistons
Stock crank and rods
Siemens Deka 750cc injectors
Uprated fuel pump (One Bosch Motorsport 044 pump might handle it, but just barely. You might want to run two in series)
GT30 or GT35 turbo
Cams and stronger valve springs

Programming to make it all work.....

This sounds right in line with what I was thinking. I was leaning towards a GT35R though I wonder how much exhaust manifold work that's going to lead to in order to correctly fit it.

So you think stick with the 90.5mm pistons? I saw that those are available...curious how they compare against the 93mm though.

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

talk to a tuner and chat it up

I will in time. I want to come up with a solid plan first and then take it to Nordic for their thoughts. I've been so pleased with my ECU from them I'm hoping to stick with them for the ECU for this thing.

Thanks again all,
Rich

[thecanyon2k4]

Holy torque steer! 500FBHP? I don't think the car will be streetable without running semi slicks or some wider tires thatn 7.5", unless you don't want any traction. I don't even think anyone carries a rim for our lug pattern that is wider than 7.5"...

But still, the prospect of that much power in a convertible will be pretty cool to see. Also, I heard that Quaife makes a 6spd. gearset for our trannies (for the manual trannies, not autos).

[mikeucr]

MAN...

What is your budget on this?!?!?

[mike saunders]

Originally Posted by demoniac

This sounds right in line with what I was thinking. I was leaning towards a GT35R though I wonder how much exhaust manifold work that's going to lead to in order to correctly fit it.

So you think stick with the 90.5mm pistons? I saw that those are available...curious how they compare against the 93mm though.

The GT3071R will fit the stock manifold with only a small manifold spacer to push it way from the block. Getting to 500 bhp with the stock manifold would be tough without generating some seriously high EGTs.

The GT35 is a tighter fit and will likely require a new manifold. If you're going that route, then you might want to do the tubular manifold and an externally wastegated turbo exhaust housing. Nick T's new manifolds accept the GT35 series but he hasn't done one with an external WG port...yet.

The 93mm pistons are getting a bit close to the upper limit of wall thickness, especially if you're going to make this a higher revving engine. You'd want to rev a bit past the stock rev limit, probably as high as 7,500 RPM.

91 or 92 mm still gives you some room for safety...

[saabkid37]

if you look at nicks dynos of the cams he picked up something rediculous like 30whp with software for them on his big turbo car.

they are built for turbo cars so i wouldnt worry about that.

and yououy can probably throw this all out the window if you have an autobox, since stock they cant even hold 300 ft/lbs and your looking at almost doubling that. i dont know what that shop does but i have a feeling theres not enough to do to hold thta...just my opnion tho.

[Troll_speed]

Originally Posted by thecanyon2k4

I don't even think anyone carries a rim for our lug pattern that is wider than 7.5"...

IIRC, Team dynamics make a 17x9 wheel with a 35ish mm offset wheel.

Arch might need some work...


What pistons?

[John Z Williams]

Originally Posted by demoniac

Thanks for the replies everybody. Exactly why I came here first.



I'm still up in the air on the trans. There's a shop in NJ which specializes rebuilding auto trans to hold higher power. I'm going to get a quote on that but if it's too much I'm just going to convert to a manual. Only option there is the 5-speed, right? I've seen mention of a 6-speed for cobalts...will that fit?

Turbo I was thinking GT35R. The maps on that are pretty impressive... Head I'm not sure about just yet.



You can get a whole host of them through Maptun. What I was really asking was whether or not they're a good thing. My understanding is that you get a more aggressive camshaft to promote scavenging...But a turbo engine is going to have excessive back pressure over an NA engine which could lead to an intake/exhaust fight if the valve timing overlaps at all which would actually reduce power. At least that's how I thought it worked.



This sounds right in line with what I was thinking. I was leaning towards a GT35R though I wonder how much exhaust manifold work that's going to lead to in order to correctly fit it.

So you think stick with the 90.5mm pistons? I saw that those are available...curious how they compare against the 93mm though.



I will in time. I want to come up with a solid plan first and then take it to Nordic for their thoughts. I've been so pleased with my ECU from them I'm hoping to stick with them for the ECU for this thing.

Thanks again all,
Rich

Call and talk to Nick at GS, he is a Nordic supplier, they use the same cams as Maptun, same enem cams, Nick just tried the more aggressive 276 cams and it was a beast, he bent the stock rods! He went from 360whp to over 400whp with the new cams.

You can do the 93mm je pistons, but that would mean the block is only good for that run, if you ruin it, no more bore overs, time for a new block. You have to use a different head gasket and it can be tricky to get them to seal, but once you do, you have a 2.5 motor!

You would need forged pistons, crowler rods, stiffer valve springs, they also make larger 32mm and 34mm valves, a ported/polished head would be nice too! Then the enem cams to tie it all together. I would go with a larger 70mm tb with 2.5" ic piping and a huge ic. Full 3" or even a 4" dp with 3" exhaust. You will need at least 750cc injectors, if not the 900cc ones, then the bosh 044 or two of them running to support over 500bhp. You will be close to needing to up the fuel line size too, you might want to upgrade from the fuel rail to the pump with a larger diameter fuel line. Nick is playing with this too.

Then tie it all together with sw. The suspension should also be done to try and handle all that power or it will be very dangerous! You need lowering springs, dampers, sub-frame brace, steering rack brace, rear arb, larger brakes to get that thang to stop from 140mph and the list just keeps on going, roll bar or cage?

Good Luck,

John

[Vigge]

Originally Posted by thecanyon2k4

Holy torque steer! 500FBHP? I don't think the car will be streetable without running semi slicks or some wider tires thatn 7.5", unless you don't want any traction. I don't even think anyone carries a rim for our lug pattern that is wider than 7.5"...

But still, the prospect of that much power in a convertible will be pretty cool to see. Also, I heard that Quaife makes a 6spd. gearset for our trannies (for the manual trannies, not autos).

maybe you should give it a try I run 500bhp+ on std viggen chassis in my daily driver, no slics nor LSD. Will spin of course on 1st and 2nd but after that it OK to drive.

[Vigge]

Originally Posted by John Z Williams

Call and talk to Nick at GS, he is a Nordic supplier, they use the same cams as Maptun, same enem cams, Nick just tried the more aggressive 276 cams and it was a beast, he bent the stock rods! He went from 360whp to over 400whp with the new cams.

You can do the 93mm je pistons, but that would mean the block is only good for that run, if you ruin it, no more bore overs, time for a new block. You have to use a different head gasket and it can be tricky to get them to seal, but once you do, you have a 2.5 motor!

You would need forged pistons, crowler rods, stiffer valve springs, they also make larger 32mm and 34mm valves, a ported/polished head would be nice too! Then the enem cams to tie it all together. I would go with a larger 70mm tb with 2.5" ic piping and a huge ic. Full 3" or even a 4" dp with 3" exhaust. You will need at least 750cc injectors, if not the 900cc ones, then the bosh 044 or two of them running to support over 500bhp. You will be close to needing to up the fuel line size too, you might want to upgrade from the fuel rail to the pump with a larger diameter fuel line. Nick is playing with this too.

Then tie it all together with sw. The suspension should also be done to try and handle all that power or it will be very dangerous! You need lowering springs, dampers, sub-frame brace, steering rack brace, rear arb, larger brakes to get that thang to stop from 140mph and the list just keeps on going, roll bar or cage?

Good Luck,

John

The orig figure which was laid out was 500bhp and this specs it really a "bit more than you really need" Of course if the aim is to build 600++ then the bigger bore, large valve etc. may be handy.

For 500bhp you basically dont need more than
a turbo a adequate side, pipes into it (tube manifold recommended in order to mount a big enough turbo with out compromises) and out, a deacent IC, cams, injectors and fuel pump and the mapping to go along with it. With this type of specs there are tens of cars out there.
Here you will find a good number of 500+ saabs
http://www.garaget.org/show.php?category=70&page=13

Naturally focus should be put to clutch and tranny and chassis as well.

[demoniac]

Originally Posted by thecanyon2k4

Holy torque steer! 500FBHP? I don't think the car will be streetable without running semi slicks or some wider tires thatn 7.5", unless you don't want any traction. I don't even think anyone carries a rim for our lug pattern that is wider than 7.5"...

But still, the prospect of that much power in a convertible will be pretty cool to see. Also, I heard that Quaife makes a 6spd. gearset for our trannies (for the manual trannies, not autos).

I've seen that Quaife gear set but I think it runs about $3k if I'm not mistaken. But you're right, should be fun in a vert.

Originally Posted by mikeucr

MAN...

What is your budget on this?!?!?

I don't really have one. I'll be doing it over the course of a couple months. But the way I look at it is I have the car and it's paid for. I can either rebuild the engine and tranny and push up the power or buy a new car (tranny is kinda shot right now). Much cheaper to just fix this one and add the power.

Originally Posted by mike saunders

The GT3071R will fit the stock manifold with only a small manifold spacer to push it way from the block. Getting to 500 bhp with the stock manifold would be tough without generating some seriously high EGTs.

The GT35 is a tighter fit and will likely require a new manifold. If you're going that route, then you might want to do the tubular manifold and an externally wastegated turbo exhaust housing. Nick T's new manifolds accept the GT35 series but he hasn't done one with an external WG port...yet.

The 93mm pistons are getting a bit close to the upper limit of wall thickness, especially if you're going to make this a higher revving engine. You'd want to rev a bit past the stock rev limit, probably as high as 7,500 RPM.

91 or 92 mm still gives you some room for safety...

Well, sounds like I'll need the new manifold to do this right either way. So if I'm doing that anyways I'll try to stick with the GT35 since it's what I had in mind. I should talk with Nick and see what he thinks about doing one with the external WG.

You have a point on the pistons. I guess if I went straight to a 93mm I probably wouldn't have any room for a future overbore if I needed to. I've seen the valve springs which are supposedly good to 7500rpm....can you get higher? I've seen Saab's which rev up to 9k so it must be possible but where on earth do you get the parts needed for that?

Originally Posted by saabkid37

if you look at nicks dynos of the cams he picked up something rediculous like 30whp with software for them on his big turbo car.

they are built for turbo cars so i wouldnt worry about that.

and yououy can probably throw this all out the window if you have an autobox, since stock they cant even hold 300 ft/lbs and your looking at almost doubling that. i dont know what that shop does but i have a feeling theres not enough to do to hold thta...just my opnion tho.

Auto's can be built to handle obscene amounts of power. Problem is the stock one can't. But the tranny that's in my C32 is good for over 500hp/tq. And the Dodge SRT-10 pickup comes stock with an auto. It's just a matter of getting the internals built to handle it.

Originally Posted by Troll_speed

IIRC, Team dynamics make a 17x9 wheel with a 35ish mm offset wheel.

Arch might need some work...


What pistons?

I was looking at the Wössner pistons...

Originally Posted by John Z Williams

Call and talk to Nick at GS, he is a Nordic supplier, they use the same cams as Maptun, same enem cams, Nick just tried the more aggressive 276 cams and it was a beast, he bent the stock rods! He went from 360whp to over 400whp with the new cams.

Yep, Nick provided me with the Nordic stage 3 ecu I have now. That's pretty crazy to bend the stock rods at only 400whp. I know there's engines out there pushing way more without bending them. Vigge is if I'm not mistaken.

Originally Posted by John Z Williams

You can do the 93mm je pistons, but that would mean the block is only good for that run, if you ruin it, no more bore overs, time for a new block. You have to use a different head gasket and it can be tricky to get them to seal, but once you do, you have a 2.5 motor!

It is tempting that's for sure. But you have a good point...it's pretty much a one shot deal with a bore of that much.

Originally Posted by John Z Williams

You would need forged pistons, crowler rods, stiffer valve springs, they also make larger 32mm and 34mm valves, a ported/polished head would be nice too! Then the enem cams to tie it all together. I would go with a larger 70mm tb with 2.5" ic piping and a huge ic. Full 3" or even a 4" dp with 3" exhaust. You will need at least 750cc injectors, if not the 900cc ones, then the bosh 044 or two of them running to support over 500bhp. You will be close to needing to up the fuel line size too, you might want to upgrade from the fuel rail to the pump with a larger diameter fuel line. Nick is playing with this too.

If I'm building it fresh I might as well run the fatter fuel line. Not that much additional effort considering everything else I'm planning. I wonder about twin fuel lines, pumps, and a secondary fuel rail. I've seen that done elsewhere so you help eliminate the worry of shorting the fuel and destroying the engine...

Originally Posted by John Z Williams

Then tie it all together with sw. The suspension should also be done to try and handle all that power or it will be very dangerous! You need lowering springs, dampers, sub-frame brace, steering rack brace, rear arb, larger brakes to get that thang to stop from 140mph and the list just keeps on going, roll bar or cage?

Good Luck,

John

Anything non obtrusive I'll do. I may try to do a roll bar since that could be done in a convertible and have it actually look nice. I've already got the springs and dampers but will need the subframe brace and rear arb and brakes though.

Originally Posted by Vigge

The orig figure which was laid out was 500bhp and this specs it really a "bit more than you really need" Of course if the aim is to build 600++ then the bigger bore, large valve etc. may be handy.

For 500bhp you basically dont need more than
a turbo a adequate side, pipes into it (tube manifold recommended in order to mount a big enough turbo with out compromises) and out, a deacent IC, cams, injectors and fuel pump and the mapping to go along with it. With this type of specs there are tens of cars out there.
Here you will find a good number of 500+ saabs
http://www.garaget.org/show.php?category=70&page=13

Naturally focus should be put to clutch and tranny and chassis as well.

I love that site. Some of those Saabs are just crazy. It would help if I could read swedish though, hehe.

You're pushing over 500hp at the crank, Vigge. What does your buildout look like? And how does your tranny seem to be holding up to it?


Again, thanks everybody. This should be a fun project. Assuming I don't get lazy when I start I'll picture everything out and try to build guides for future reference.

-Rich

[mike saunders]

Hey Rich,

I'm currently doing an engine rebuild in preparation for SOC 08, so I'll be following your progress closely. I think John and Vigge have also had some engine work done over the past year, so they'll likely be good sources of info as you continue through the spring....

Have fun!

[demoniac]

Originally Posted by mike saunders

Hey Rich,

I'm currently doing an engine rebuild in preparation for SOC 08, so I'll be following your progress closely. I think John and Vigge have also had some engine work done over the past year, so they'll likely be good sources of info as you continue through the spring....

Have fun!

Fantastic, thanks.

When & Where is SOC 08 anyways? Don't some of the big tuners show up there too?

[Vigge]

Originally Posted by demoniac

You're pushing over 500hp at the crank, Vigge. What does your buildout look like? And how does your tranny seem to be holding up to it?

You will find my car at that site with the up to data mod list, but in shortness
mods are
9-3 Viggen MY00

Engine:
B235R block with balanced internals
JE pistons
T5 ported head
Enem 268/9.6 Cams
Custom adjustable sprocket
Custom tube manifold
GT3071 ar. 0.86 (ported)
3" custom DP
JT 3" cat-back
508x300x75China IC
B204 throttlebody
B204 inlet manifold
B204 fuel rail
RC racing 750cc injectors
Walbro fuel pump
Nira i3+ Engine management with home tune
507bhp/ 601Nm (445whp)

Viggen PP + carbon discs

WO2 meter (Innovete LC-1)
EGT meter
Dataloggers (innovate LMA-3, 2x SSI-4)

Chassis
strearing rack clamp
All other parts as they where when the car left factory

Tranny is unmodified viggen box with 100k miles on it. I dont drive strip with the car, but other other than that it get ALOT of spank.

[demoniac]

Old thread, I know... But after doing a few things to my C32-AMG this project is about to get started!

Spoke with IPT yesterday and got a quote for rebuilding my autobox. (http://www.importperformancetrans.com/) Rebuild will include cryo treatment, valve body mods, additional clutches, reworked torque converter, case machining for better lubrication, and a magnaflux scan for stress cracks. Will run me about $3864 shipped back to me. I told him I wanted it to be able to safely handle 400ft-lb's of torque. He said this should be good to 500 -- and it even comes with a 12 month, 12k mile warranty.

Pricey, I know. But it's actually cheaper than I was expecting. And definitely cheaper than converting to a manual and loading in the Quaiffe gearset.

This has been what's been holding me back -- trying to figure out wtf to do with the tranny. Now that I have that settled it's time to yank the engine and get to work. Still going to be a slow process but I will update as I have them.

Thanks!
Rich