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C900 Performance, Mods & Tuning Covers Tuning & Performance modifications for the Classic 900 (C900)

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  #21  
Old 18th August 2007
sonett1 sonett1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejenner
you have to email them or phone them. They probably have a US distributor - just have a look on the website and see if there is an American website. I don't think their an English company.
Catcams are based in Belgium.
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  #22  
Old 18th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93SAABJADE
I gotta know honestly because I'm getting different opinions. Would it be a waste of my money to get an exhaust (no cat) and fuel chip with a higher rev limit for my N/A?
A tubular manifold from MSS would be an improvement on the original item, if you remove the cat you will gain HP, probably around 3-6 hp, but depending on your yearly government vehicle test it may not be allowed?

As for the chip, i doubt you will see much of a gain, , it's not really the fuelling that's a problem with an N/A engine, the fuelling is quite easy to increase, the increase needs to be the amount of air the engine can process, this is the expensive part and the hard part is finding someone you can trust to do the cylinderhead work properly.
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  #23  
Old 18th August 2007
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It has already been mentioned, to get serious gains from an N/A engine you will have to release some of your money.

Even if you do have headwork/cams/exhaust work carried out, you WILL have to have the ECU remapped, although it will still run, but it will not be very good, the idle will be poor and you will be giving away quite a bit of power because the timing and fuelling will all be in the wrong place.
To give you a real life example i carried out some serious work to one of my other cars which is N/A, flowed head/rally catcam/4-2-1 de-cat exhaust, the engine would not idle, it had some flat spots and was down on power, basically it ran like crap. I took it for a session on the rollers and had the original ECU remapped by someone who knew what they were doing, on the first run without remapping the power was already up by 20%, but it did not run very clean, after about 10 hours of remapping the power was at a 30% increase on stock power from the factory.

If you fit a very mild road cam, you may get away without having the ECU remapped, but it all depends on what you want to acheive.
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  #24  
Old 18th August 2007
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im going this winter to do some work to my motor 2.1 non turbo in my racecar. im planing on geting the crank lighten, lighter rods and some special high compresion pistons. light fly wheel, re working the head and geting some better cams. my uncle knows a motor guy who does all this kind of work and i hope with him and help wiht others we will be able to make some power out of a non turbo 16 valve. i would love to reach 200 horse. i know VW rabbits with lots of work can get that kind of power thats what i am racing against.
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  #25  
Old 18th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 912 fanatic
im going this winter to do some work to my motor 2.1 non turbo in my racecar. im planing on geting the crank lighten, lighter rods and some special high compresion pistons. light fly wheel, re working the head and geting some better cams. my uncle knows a motor guy who does all this kind of work and i hope with him and help wiht others we will be able to make some power out of a non turbo 16 valve. i would love to reach 200 horse. i know VW rabbits with lots of work can get that kind of power thats what i am racing against.
Lightening the crank and rods will not really make much difference, nor will the high compression pistons, save yourself some money and use the standard ones, if this motor guy knows what he is doing he can get your compression raised using other methods. The alloy flywheel is usefull but expensive. You will need to get the right cams to work well with the head work carried out.
Even with larger inlet valves you will struggle to get 200bhp on the standard inlet manifold, twin carbs or throttle bodies will get you over.
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  #26  
Old 18th August 2007
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my understanding is with higher compression you are able to run 114 oct racing fuel. Every race motor at the tracks has high compression ethier through head work or pistons. ever motor i have ever seen that puts power out other then a turbo motor needs high compression to run on race fuel.

but i not a motor nut and do not know too much about how to make power
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  #27  
Old 18th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 912 fanatic
my understanding is with higher compression you are able to run 114 oct racing fuel. Every race motor at the tracks has high compression ethier through head work or pistons. ever motor i have ever seen that puts power out other then a turbo motor needs high compression to run on race fuel.

but i not a motor nut and do not know too much about how to make power
Yes you will need higher compression, but you can get it more cheaply than buying special pistons. You can either mill the block or the head or both.
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  #28  
Old 18th August 2007
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A 94+ so-called "T5" head with no mods will bump CR 0.4 on your B212, and has larger intake valves (1mm larger). B212 mani will fit with port-matching. This head flows better than B2x2 heads.

This stuff can be had cheap if you have a junkyard nearby -- I recently picked up one of these heads at the Pull-a-Part for about US$25. Read my old posts for info on how to fit it to a B2x2.

Really, though, if you are interested in building a motor, read your own old posts with responses from Brad Schaffner.
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  #29  
Old 19th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorper
A 94+ so-called "T5" head with no mods will bump CR 0.4 on your B212, and has larger intake valves (1mm larger). B212 mani will fit with port-matching. This head flows better than B2x2 heads.

This stuff can be had cheap if you have a junkyard nearby -- I recently picked up one of these heads at the Pull-a-Part for about US$25. Read my old posts for info on how to fit it to a B2x2.

Really, though, if you are interested in building a motor, read your own old posts with responses from Brad Schaffner.
do you have a link to these posts?
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  #30  
Old 19th August 2007
93SAABJADE 93SAABJADE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejenner
the answer to your question depends on what you want to achieve.

Why don't you write down the different opinions you're considering and we can see if we can work out which opinion is likely to offer most of what you want.
I'd like to try to get anywhere from 15-30 hp. That would be awesome. I'm not looking for a car like the turbo guys that can beat v6s and so on because I know it's not possible with my car.

Cams from cat cams are $600 and I dont want to pay that much for something thats not gonna give huge gains.

Exhaust with no cat (no emissions in FL), fuel chip with higher rev limit is what I'm looking at. Any other suggestions?
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  #31  
Old 19th August 2007
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unless you are willing to put out the money, you are only going to get minor power improvements. if these N/A engines could make much more power in anywhere close to stock form, dont you think saab would have done it? Unless you want to build a N/A up for the fun of having a NA powerhouse or for class limited racing, i would suggest just finding a turbocar, or a turbo engine to put in.
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  #32  
Old 19th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93SAABJADE
I'd like to try to get anywhere from 15-30 hp. That would be awesome. I'm not looking for a car like the turbo guys that can beat v6s and so on because I know it's not possible with my car.

Cams from cat cams are $600 and I dont want to pay that much for something thats not gonna give huge gains.

Exhaust with no cat (no emissions in FL), fuel chip with higher rev limit is what I'm looking at. Any other suggestions?
Achieving big gains with N/A engines is the result of many parts chosen to work together.

I assume your engine is pretty much in standard tune? and it's the B202i producing 130bhp at 6100rpm?
To get some rough figures, if you fit a decat with 4-2-1 manifold, you may see gains around 5-7%, so that may give around 9bhp.
I don't think increasing the rev limit on this engine is going to give you any gains, power peaks at 6100rpm, so increasing the rev limit with this state of tune is pointless, all you will do is wear your engine out quicker at a higher RPM.
All things being equal, the gains on that fuel chip at $90 will be less than the $600 catcams, dollar for dollar.
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  #33  
Old 19th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonett1
do you have a link to these posts?
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=17

RE: heads. T5** head has 1mm larger intake valves, better flow, fits on B2x2 with some mods: there are gaps at the timing chain cover. I got my info on the swap from Scanwest Autosport, who put them on their rally car in the mid-90s.

I have read that the T7 heads are even better; however, I have not seen data to support these claims. While I do not have flow numbers for T5 vs. B2x2 comparison, there is a guy local to me who had a number of heads flowed and the T5 came out way ahead of the B2x2 heads.

Also, I don't know if a B2x2 manifold can be easily/cheaply mated to a T7 head, whereas I have my own car as proof that a B212 mani can be fit to a T5 head (port matched with some massaging of gasket). I am really cheap: even if the T7 were better, I'd only try working with it if I could buy one for, say, about US$100.

To do the swap on a B202, you either need to customize the timing cover plate and use a headgasket from a T5 engine, or customize the head and use a gasket from a B202. For a B212, you must customize the head because you can only use a B212 gasket (T5 and B202 gaskets are both for 90mm holes while B212 is for 93mm).

How to do it:

Method 1 -- Mod the head:

1. Lay head on its head (place it upside down on the bench).
2. Lay B2x2 gasket on head, noting gaps at the timing chain hole.
3. Take to machinist. Have them mill out spaces and epoxy in pieces of aluminum (few mm thick) to cover gasket surfaces where necessary. Do not have them weld -- it's unnecesary.

Method 2 -- Mod the timing cover:

1. Match a T5 gasket to a B2x2 timing chain cover, noting gaps.
2. Weld pieces of Al to cover gasket surfaces.

Head Specs for CR calcs:

B202, 85T only: 42 cc
B202, 86-93: 46 cc
B212/early B234: 48 cc
B024/later B234 (a.k.a. "T5 head"): I've been told 44.8 and 45 cc
Later T7 heads???

Note 1: I did not personally measure the chamber volumes listed above but I am fairly confident in the numbers, especially for the B212 and B204.

Note 2: T5 head is thinner than B2x2, so if you fit B2x2 cams they'll be retarded by 2*. See my blog for more info.

Regarding cam timing: An idea I need to look into is to use the readily available adjustable cams for B204/later B234 engines. It may be possible to use them if you shim the timing gear on the crank with a balance shaft gear and use the T5 cam gears. Otherwise, use B2x2 cam gears for this swap.

Excellent CR calculator (by a degreed engineer, so likely correct/accurate):
http://not2fast.com/turbo/compression/compression.shtml

More details at my blog. Also see http://www.saabrally.com for more info, as Luke has done the same swap.



**"T5 head" is a bit of a misnomer, as these heads were also fit to NA motors running Motronic.
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  #34  
Old 19th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonett1
Achieving big gains with N/A engines is the result of many parts chosen to work together.

I assume your engine is pretty much in standard tune? and it's the B202i producing 130bhp at 6100rpm?
To get some rough figures, if you fit a decat with 4-2-1 manifold, you may see gains around 5-7%, so that may give around 9bhp.
I don't think increasing the rev limit on this engine is going to give you any gains, power peaks at 6100rpm, so increasing the rev limit with this state of tune is pointless, all you will do is wear your engine out quicker at a higher RPM.
All things being equal, the gains on that fuel chip at $90 will be less than the $600 catcams, dollar for dollar.
Doesn't removing the cat do away with backpressure that is necessary for the exhaust valves ?
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  #35  
Old 20th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorper
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=17

RE: heads. T5** head has 1mm larger intake valves, better flow, fits on B2x2 with some mods: there are gaps at the timing chain cover. I got my info on the swap from Scanwest Autosport, who put them on their rally car in the mid-90s.

I have read that the T7 heads are even better; however, I have not seen data to support these claims. While I do not have flow numbers for T5 vs. B2x2 comparison, there is a guy local to me who had a number of heads flowed and the T5 came out way ahead of the B2x2 heads.

Also, I don't know if a B2x2 manifold can be easily/cheaply mated to a T7 head, whereas I have my own car as proof that a B212 mani can be fit to a T5 head (port matched with some massaging of gasket). I am really cheap: even if the T7 were better, I'd only try working with it if I could buy one for, say, about US$100.

To do the swap on a B202, you either need to customize the timing cover plate and use a headgasket from a T5 engine, or customize the head and use a gasket from a B202. For a B212, you must customize the head because you can only use a B212 gasket (T5 and B202 gaskets are both for 90mm holes while B212 is for 93mm).

How to do it:

Method 1 -- Mod the head:

1. Lay head on its head (place it upside down on the bench).
2. Lay B2x2 gasket on head, noting gaps at the timing chain hole.
3. Take to machinist. Have them mill out spaces and epoxy in pieces of aluminum (few mm thick) to cover gasket surfaces where necessary. Do not have them weld -- it's unnecesary.

Method 2 -- Mod the timing cover:

1. Match a T5 gasket to a B2x2 timing chain cover, noting gaps.
2. Weld pieces of Al to cover gasket surfaces.

Head Specs for CR calcs:

B202, 85T only: 42 cc
B202, 86-93: 46 cc
B212/early B234: 48 cc
B024/later B234 (a.k.a. "T5 head"): I've been told 44.8 and 45 cc
Later T7 heads???

Note 1: I did not personally measure the chamber volumes listed above but I am fairly confident in the numbers, especially for the B212 and B204.

Note 2: T5 head is thinner than B2x2, so if you fit B2x2 cams they'll be retarded by 2*. See my blog for more info.

Regarding cam timing: An idea I need to look into is to use the readily available adjustable cams for B204/later B234 engines. It may be possible to use them if you shim the timing gear on the crank with a balance shaft gear and use the T5 cam gears. Otherwise, use B2x2 cam gears for this swap.

Excellent CR calculator (by a degreed engineer, so likely correct/accurate):
http://not2fast.com/turbo/compression/compression.shtml

More details at my blog. Also see http://www.saabrally.com for more info, as Luke has done the same swap.



**"T5 head" is a bit of a misnomer, as these heads were also fit to NA motors running Motronic.
Gorper, thanks for posting this information up. I think if you had serious head work done on the 'lesser' of these heads it would end up much better than the best standard head, but if you are on a budget, and we all are, it looks a good upgrade.
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  #36  
Old 20th August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabMon
Doesn't removing the cat do away with backpressure that is necessary for the exhaust valves ?
Why do the exhaust valves want back pressure? They don't want any back pressure.
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  #37  
Old 22nd August 2007
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can you put a turbo chip on a n/a?
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  #38  
Old 22nd August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonett1
Why do the exhaust valves want back pressure? They don't want any back pressure.
Thanks sonnettI.Yours is the oponion I respect most.I have read about your expertise(especially with two strokers),which is my dream car.A cool little ring,ding,ding.Have always been fascinated with those cars.
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  #39  
Old 22nd August 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88saab900s
can you put a turbo chip on a n/a?
Putting a Turbo ECU into a non-turbo car (you wouldn't swap just the chip, you'd swap the whole ECU) will do absolutely 100% nothing to make the car faster.

Here's a very basic explanation: The amount of power an engine can make is directly related to how much fuel it can burn. It's that simple -- put more fuel in, get more energy, get more power, go faster. But to burn fuel, you have to have air. So adding more fuel won't do anything unless you can also add more air. And that is the crux of the matter.

A naturally-aspirated engine is limited by the amount of air it can draw in. You can do all sorts of things to change this (cams, for example), but they're often expensive and come with trade-offs, like driveability issues, emissions, fuel economy, etc.

There's lots more to it, so do yourself a favor: go to the library and get some books on engines and performance. You will learn more in one weekend of reading than spending a couple years reading forum posts by anonymous folks whose expertise is often questionable and whose advice, however well-intentioned, may be mis-guided and incorrect. If you yourself don't know any better, than you won't know if what you're reading is useful or B.S.
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  #40  
Old 22nd August 2007
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Hey - they say that, "if something sounds too good to be true, it likely is"... ...which may be evident with this little beauty. I did a quick Google search for "chip Saab 900S" and this came up:

http://www.speedydelivery.co.uk/car-...saab-900.shtml

Now, can anyone tell me what the hell it is, or what it does?

Edit: OMG, forgive my idiocy. I don't believe that people are still selling the old 'resistor' mod... (Heard about this one 10 years ago.) Although I would still appreciate an 'expert view' of exactly what it does, and why it's a stupid idea.

Last edited by RWElphinstone; 22nd August 2007 at 02:07 PM.
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