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Improving Mitsubishi TE05 - turbo upgrade

11K views 63 replies 15 participants last post by  ShadowWorks 
#1 ·
What's the way to improve the pressure delivery into an mitsubishi TE05 ?
Does anybody know (like changing the trim in the T3) what's the magic upgrade for the TE05 ?

NB: I can hold 22 psi (1.5bar) for only 2second before the apc open the wastegate. But in normal operation, it's impossible to get more than 13psi at 5000rpm at 200kph...
I need more...
 
#2 ·
The Mits'used on the late c900 is the TE05-12B. A 16G compressor wheel could be fitted in a correspondingly machined out compressor housing, which would make it about equivalent to the 'trim 60' on Garrett T03's, which can support up to about 300 hp with good efficiency. The nice thing about the TE05 however is that the wastegate design is _much_ better than that of the Garrett. On the Saab Network's Performance BB there's talk about having exhaust downpipes made that would separate the airflow coming out of the wastegate and 'blend' it into the exhaust flow not unlike tubular exhaust headers.
It seems at high hp applications, the turbo/wastegate/exhaust design of the c900 causes some serious backpressus which makes for slower turbo spoolup and thermal load.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com
 
#4 ·
No way !!!!
I reajust the base boost yesterday at 0.4bar (5.8psi) because previously it was set at 3 psi (0.2bar) and at high rpm/speed/pressure, when the wastegate open i was loosing too much power (generally going from 1.2bar to 0.3 bar !!!!!!).
I don't have test the car on highway since the modification but i think that i will have to lower P pot a bit because it seems that the P max is much higher since readjust the base boost...
 
#5 ·
I can't see any mods in the high end delivery not killing the wonderfully quick spoolup of the Mitsubishi - Turbo's have a narrow efficiency band - you can move this up and down the rev range but there's no 'magic' upgrade to give you power below 2k rpm and still be efficient at 5k and + 1.5bar of boost. If all you want is more top end - swop the unit for an earlier Garret!
 
#7 ·
I don't need 1.5bar at 5000rpm, but i want 1bar at 5000rpm. It seems impossible with the mitsu !!! At 5000rpm i only have 0.6 to 0.8bar....In France, on highway, you can easily reach 240kph. But with the c900, at 200kph you are about 4800rpm and I always feel the lack of power due to the low boost (0.6-0.8bar).
Any Idea to reach 1bar at this rpm without changing the mitsu for the garett and without ceramic ball bearing ?
 
#8 ·
I don't see why the standard Mitsu TE-05 couldn't provide 1 bar of boost at the 5000 rpm.
There's a guy in Finland who runs his Mitsu-equipped T16 with 1.3-1.4 bar. He just added a big intercooler, tweaked the APC pretty substantially and took care that there's enough fuel for such high boost.
1 bar of boost is generally stated to be the maximum the TE-05 can provide without getting excessively hot, but apparently, it's possible to push the limits a bit.
If you can get 1 bar at lower revs, then the turbo most certainly is capable of giving the same boost level at high revs as well.
If it doesn't, then it's a question of boost controller; be that an APC or whatever you may have in your car.
 
#9 ·
I don't guess that the APC is faulty because if he drop back the pressure that's because the engine begin to knock.
I will check the ignition. Maybe it's coming from there because originally, there was no APC on the car (it's a LPT) then in put the APC box on it and do all the wiring.
But i never check the igintion timing.
Maybe there is few difference in timing between LPT and full pressure.
What do you think ?
BTW, is there any difference between the LPT wastegate and the full pressure c900 with a mitsu turbo ? (I'm asking that because the arm that open the gate in the turbo don't have a very long range to open or close the gate...It seems strange...)
 
#10 ·
I suppose the full pressure T16 would have different ignition settings, because the addition of APC and intercooler allow less retard for ignition, thus developing more power.

The wastegate is the same AFAIK, but I'm not sure about this...

If knocking indeed seems to be the problem, then you should check your injection output as well. It could be that the mixture is too lean for higher boost levels.
Also do check all the pressure hoses, in particular the APC three-way solenoid valve hoses. There could be a minor leak that only becomes a problem with certain boost/load combo.
 
#11 ·
As far as I know the LPT distributor has more retard than the FPT and it brings it on more gradulaly. If it retards to much bellow 10deg BTDC though it will become very inefficient and you will loose power and generate heat even though you can still be boosting quite high. The APC is programed to taper boost after about 4100rpm as I think ( as Keith has discovered) that at high RPM the APC is not very good at detecting knock and reacting quick enough to prevent damage to the engine. Have you done the 'Red box' upgrade? - this is specificaly designed to sustain boost higher up the rev range.Also if you are running a late T16 non S apc box from a cat equiped car - they are only 160bhp - the Red Box mod will give you 25bhp more on this box. In the end though I have done lots of mods to mine and I can't get it to sustain 1bar for more than a few seconds - water injection is he only way you are going to control the combustion temperatures if you want to hold 1bar for any length of time.
 
#12 ·
Originaly, the car is a LPT (1991) with cat but without APC and without intercooler.
I put the APC on the car and with help of the tweaker´s site I tweak the APC. I put the intercooler too.
Since a year, i´ve tried the Speedparts chip for Lucas Injection ( I don´t see any improvement...)
I think that i will try to focus myself on the ignition.

Thanks to all saab freaks for advices.
 
#13 ·
Another 'trick' is to advance the basic ignition from 16btdc to 18 or 20 btdc - this will give you much better off boost performance. Use a timing light and a pump to see how far you get retard and if neccessary bend the stop tab to get more ( as the LPT dist has more retard than normal anyway you may be able to get away with just advancing the basic setting)- I run 20deg at idle and 11 deg at at boost. Fitting a BOV will help spoolup between shifts (the standard Bosch part is good enough and cheap) - try to mount it near the throttle and not near the turbo as this will keep it cooler and prolong it's life. I have got good results from a RRFPR ( from Trent Saab) - set it at the stock 3.0 bar for a Lucas and be prepared for readjustments for the first couple of 100 miles ( so you will need to get a good fuel pressure guage) this will give you smoother power delivery and quicker response but not any more power - it's a drivability improver ( don't use it with the fuel chip!). If you can (emmissions regulations permiting)replace the Cat with a straight sleeve of exhaust tube - this will greatly free up the top end power and make the engine feel much more free reving - you need to have a RRFPR or a fuel chip with this mod IMO otherwise it will feel less powerful. If you can - go one better and replace the restrictive cast elbow off the turbo with a custom bent pipe ( battery will need to go in the boot and make sure you get the Lambda sensor refitted)this will really open up the power at higher revs. All of these mods mean you will get better power and drivability out of more of the rev range.
 
#14 ·
I don't think the fuel injection chip would do much without other mods. You can trust the car mfgs to come up with a reasonably god fuel map for the OE spec engine, I'd guess. Typically, fueling mods on turbo cars are needed to support more boost and/or intake exhaust mods and prevent leaning out at WOT/high rpm under the new conditions.

Fit an IC if you haven't done so already, and find a tuner who has equipment for monitoring air/fuel ratio as well as exhaust gas temperature, in order to afely up the boost. According to Glenn Ellis of Trent Saab, they typically find lpt's fitted with their sports exhaust, an IC with fancooler kit, an RRFPR, uprated bypass valve and ditto wastegate can safely take 1.1 bar, which would make them real performers I'd guess.

Anyways, your fuel system with the chip should provide you with considerably more leeway when trying to push more air through the engine, than it would stock. There lies the advantage.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com
 
#15 ·
Just today I picked up a te05 from the scrapyard for £20! I prised it out of a 9000 se, so what I need to know is whether the turbo itself is the only part I need as I also got the inlet casting and actuator in the deal (I havn't had time to do any comparison yet)?

Cheers

Ken

_________________
'88 900 T8 Auto
Be patient my young padowin apprentice!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ken on Jun 29, 2002 9:40pm ]</font>
 
#18 ·
It's a straight bolt on job - make sure you get get all the rest of the plumbing. If you have a choice of IC's the later style with the larger core and the formed pipes are better than the earlier one with the cast pipes - better flow. You might take the edge off pickup and throttle response with an IC but you should gain more outright power.
 
#19 ·
Eric van Spelde said:
The Mits'used on the late c900 is the TE05-12B. A 16G compressor wheel could be fitted in a correspondingly machined out compressor housing, which would make it about equivalent to the 'trim 60' on Garrett T03's, which can support up to about 300 hp with good efficiency.

Happy Saabing,
Eric
Turbo! Team Europe
http://www.turboteameurope.com
Eric do you know a place that can supply these 16G compressor wheel or even the original one?

Would the small 16G compressor wheel fit the standard TE05 12B air side housing?

I don't want to have the inside face machined being on a budget and I have a spare TE05 12B which I can experiment on.
 
#23 ·
Si said:
What about mix and matching with a TD04, they use those on the 9-3 HOT/Viggens etc so should have a descent sized compressor wheel and housing.
I thought the TD04 was a pig to fit on the c900?

I was spying on the Volvo forums and they complain alot in general but man did they complain about fitting turbos :lol:

Isn't the TD04 the same size as the TE05 anyway?


Thanks for the pictures Shan, I never realised all they did was machine the throat of the housing, I though they would have to profile the rear to match the compressor wheel, in that case I could machine this myself.;)

I never realised just how big the 18G is, its huge!

How much Horse power does Bohtak car make with that 18G?
 
#26 ·
MAPABLE ECU, Sha... Shouldn't be a problem at all...
Matthew, are you sure about the 18g? And how is this compared to the TD04-18T in size? My brother is maxing his 18T on his 9k 2.3 aero now, producing 340bhp...
Daniel.
 
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