SaabCentral Forums banner

Is the Oil sludge problem the same as the Crank Ventilation Problem?

4K views 15 replies 5 participants last post by  susaab 
#1 ·
My family has a 99 Saab 9-5 and the dealership just told my sister the car needs $3000 in repairs because there was too much pressure in the engine due to the crank ventilation. Originally she just took the car in because there motor oil would also be dripping. Now the dealership wont even allow her to drive the car home because of safety issues. I ve done some research on this and it seems that the crank ventialtion is a known problem. I also read that there is a TSB for oil sludge with a 8yr warranty on the engine and the oil sludge thread shows diagrams of the crank ventilation. Could some one shed some light?

Btw, Saab USA offered to pay for the parts after my sister complained to the dealership. But i believe that they should be covering all repair cost. The car is 30k over warranty.

Any help or insight would be appreciated
 
#3 ·
Improper crank ventilation seems to be a major factor in the sludging problem. Unless they are planning to do MAJOR engine repairs and SAAB is picking up the whole tab, run away. Last time I checked, SAAB dealers have no right to prevent you from driving your car home. Doctors can't even prevent a dying man from walking out of the hospital.
 
#5 ·
Kermit, what is the take here on the theory that the main culprit is the oil pump? A columnist for NINES, our SCNA magazine is convinced it is the root problem. Thing is, if that were the case, it'd seem that the problem would affect 9-3's and 9-5's equally given they share pump designs. 9-5's however seem to be exponentially more affected than 9-3's.


Check out his articles if you haven't. It's Chuck Andrews, by the way.

http://www.andrewsofprinceton.com/shared/9s.cfm
 
#6 ·
Interesting read Brian but as you say, why does the sludging issue appear more prevalent in the 9-5 when it shares so much with the 9-3? :roll: I'm no mechanic but the failures of turbo's, big end bearings etc is oil starvation, whether its the oil pick-up pipe clogging that causes this, or even prevents the oil pump from functioning correctly i wouldn't like to guess. The fact that SAAB redesigned the crankcase breather for the 04 model, would suggest this is the problem. I'd like to think they investigated whether the oil pump was man enough for the job prior to the redesign.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Well my sister talked to the service advisor about the 8yr warranty and she said its only for oil sludge problems. The service advisor said the car didnt have an oil sludge problem just a crank ventilation problem so they wouldnt cover it. It doesnt make any sense whatsoever that we should be paying for damages caused by a well known faulty design but I dont really know what else to do. They refused to pay 100% of the cost of fixing their mess.

Since my sister needs the car we had them fix it with Saab paying for the parts. Its gonna run her $1700 for labor. I feel we are getting ripped off but i dont know exactly how much we would have really saved going to an independent shop. My sister really didnt want the aggravation of an independent shop potentially messing things up or dealilng with Saab for the free parts.

We will never be buying a Saab again. She was such a die hard Saab supporter after her previous 9000 but this experience has left a sour taste in her mouth.
 
#8 ·
But the crankcase ventilation is part of the oil system... It's basically this thing, which has a bunch of oil lines running off of it to various parts of the engine. When the crankcase or oil hosing gets clogged with sludge, that's when you get problems with the car.

Are there any other dealerships in your area? I think that is pretty ridiculous.
 
#9 ·
My first recommendation is go to another dealer. These guys are just jerking her around. The leak must be the one at the junction of the timing chain cover with the head and block. At most, this is a head gasket replacement and PCV system replacement. No where NEAR $3000. And as for being unsafe to drive, that's just pure Barbara Streisand. As long as the car has ample oil, it should be okay for now.

Now, I am new to the 9-5 and was checking out all I could on this issue. Kermit, Chris-correct me if I am getting this wrong. But from what I've read, the Technical Service Bulletin on these oil leaks tells the service people to replace the PCV system components (or something similar as there is a bit of revision) first. In many cases, this can cause the leak to disappear as the high pressures forcing the oil out are remedied. Only THEN can they move on to head gasket replacement along w/ new crankshaft seal and resealing the timing chain cover. Which STILL shouldn't cost $3000!

That being said, they are correct in the fact that this isn't covered under the sludging extended warranty. They are not allowed to replace anything until they at the very least hear noises indicative of improper engine wear or otherwise due to lack of lubrication.
 
#10 ·
Well after reading ur replies I immediately called my sister to find out exactly what parts were being changed. They are changing the head gasket, cylinder seals and hoses for the crank ventilation. But the biggest surprise is that they are replacing turbo as well. I think this whole issue is a rip off but does getting a new turbo makes things a bit less of a rip off? On the invoice they listed the turbo as $656.

Btw, thanks for all the replies. I appreciate everyones help.
 
#11 ·
Do you know anything about where the oil was leaking from? I had sludging issues when I bought my car, and have gotten a leaky head gasket from it, and also a turbo failure. This is because the pipes have been blocked due to sludge, causing high pressure for the oil pump required to bypass it, which blew out the gasket. After flushing the engine and cleaning the sump it seems fine, and although I still do lose a bit of oil through the head gasket, it's nothing I can't stand for the time being.

I have not heard of a turbo needing to be replaced directly because of crankcase issues. The sludge in my car did cause a turbo failure, since it was not getting any oil, but that made the turbo have extremely prominent whining sound (my car honestly sounded like a jet engine). After awhie my car lost all boost pressure as the thing broke down and seized up, and ran like an absolute slug. If she just brought it in for a bit of an oil leak, I highly doubt there is anything wrong with the turbo.

They seem to be replacing not just the crankcase ventilation, but almost everything that can go wrong with it as well (as was caused in my case by sludging issues).
 
#12 ·
They are replacing the turbo because oil is leaking into the turbo causing some white smoke in the exhaust. I dont know if they could have just replace a seal on the turbo but if Saab is gonna pay for a new turbo i guess why not. The dealer is make a killing on labor charges. They are charging 18hrs for everything.
 
#13 ·
Turbo failure could be caused by PCV failure OR sludge. I don't know how well they examined it though. The turbo can be bought from many dealers for anywhere from $441 (genuinesaab.com) to $495 (saab dealer from PA-I forget the name). For $656, they could buy it and have it installed. Yes, that does bring things closer to $3k, but...Here's what they are trying to do. Everything you've described LEADS TO AND PREDICTS a sludged engine. If you were to wait until the engine were sludged, you'd get all this done for free if you had records of oil changes. But since you are replacing it before signs of ENGINE wear, they are giving you the shaft. THAT's why they want you/your sister to fix it now.
 
#14 ·
bkrell said:
Kermit, what is the take here on the theory that the main culprit is the oil pump? A columnist for NINES, our SCNA magazine is convinced it is the root problem. Thing is, if that were the case, it'd seem that the problem would affect 9-3's and 9-5's equally given they share pump designs. 9-5's however seem to be exponentially more affected than 9-3's.


Check out his articles if you haven't. It's Chuck Andrews, by the way.

http://www.andrewsofprinceton.com/shared/9s.cfm
Interesting stuff.
However, I don't see that he is making a connection between engine sludge and the oil pump. His evidence points to the oil pump being another potential source of engine failure. In all three of his cases there is no evidence of sludge and in the last case evidence that the oil pump caused the failure. He further adds the link suggesting that standard engine oil additives are no good for ally blocks and components and could therefore damage components such as the pump without any sludge forming. Or have I missed something? I have not heard much if anything about failed pumps, but plenty about sludged up engines.

I have also seen a suggestion that the finer mesh oil strainer on the B2%5 engines compared to previous engines like the B2%4 series, is too easily blocked by sludge leading to oil starvation. Maybe the finer strainer was a solution to a problem with the oil pumps that has now produced an even bigger problem?
 
#15 ·
Well, he's got a few more recent articles that haven't been psted there yet. I believe the connection he's making is that the new pump design is much poorer and subjuct to deterioration from even the fine particles that make it thru the strainer where as the pump on the 9000 and NG900 was a more robust design capable of taking the smaller oxidized particles in stride. Therefore, when the pump deteriorates, the pressure drops and the engine begins to become oil starved. I was actually surprised to learn of all the connections to PCV problems as Chuck has never mentioned them. I don't know if the article was posted about oil sampling, but he has aranged a deal w/ oilmedic.com to get us a cheaper rate on used oil analysis so that baselines can be established for engine wear. I've already sent off for one.
 
#16 ·
bkrell said:
Turbo failure could be caused by PCV failure OR sludge. I don't know how well they examined it though. The turbo can be bought from many dealers for anywhere from $441 (genuinesaab.com) to $495 (saab dealer from PA-I forget the name). For $656, they could buy it and have it installed. Yes, that does bring things closer to $3k, but...Here's what they are trying to do. Everything you've described LEADS TO AND PREDICTS a sludged engine. If you were to wait until the engine were sludged, you'd get all this done for free if you had records of oil changes. But since you are replacing it before signs of ENGINE wear, they are giving you the shaft. THAT's why they want you/your sister to fix it now.
I agree with you. In hindsight I should have just told my sister to drive the car back and told them we would be waiting for the sludge problem to appear to get a new engine. I am going to confront them this weekend when I go pick up the car with my sister. They are basically just taking advantage of her. The dealership is the one located at the Santa Ana Automall Orange County.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top