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  #321  
Old 30th July 2012
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the gap at the bottom of the pic is normal.
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  #322  
Old 30th July 2012
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Well, I certainly aren't holding my breath on this one, but there's definitely something wrong with the mount; it's torn from the top of the frame. I assume if the full weight of one side of the engine is borne by the bottom of the mount from (such as was in my first photo), not only is the rubber transmitting much of the vibrations from the engine, but the position of the engine has changed; in my case, it was unusual because I believe my modified exhaust was hitting the chassis under conditions just right (such as when I was turning right). There is mild wear at this point of contact, which didn't originally clue me in to chassis contact (I thought perhaps it was something that happened when I took my pipe in for re-welding, or perhaps it was a spot of rust or something). I think how the mount works is to suspend the engine within the frame of the mount (tensile strength), not support it from the bottom with the bulk of the rubber (compressive strength).

In the meantime, I'm trying to get some niggling things out of the way; it's not that I'm getting my hopes up about the mounts, but more that it's a problem even while I'm trying to diagnose my vibration problem. The main rad fan isn't working, and I need to figure out why. I'm not about to throw away all the work on the block by having it overheat on me while trying to figure out another problem. I haven't tested the fan, but I went through the Bentley, and have been able to get a voltage at terminals 37 and 80 (IIRC) at the fuse box, for the fan relay, but no voltage between green fan wire (positive), and the ground wire on the thermo switch. Does this sound like the relay (or possibly wiring between the relay and the thermo switch) is the problem?

li Arc
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  #323  
Old 31st July 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S900t8v View Post
the gap at the bottom of the pic is normal.
even if the engine is in the car sitting on the mount?
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  #324  
Old 31st July 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejenner View Post
even if the engine is in the car sitting on the mount?
The torn part of the picture is abnormal, the part at the bottom is normal, they have spaces in the rubber to give the damping effect and reduce vibrations.

So yes ejenner the gap at the bottom is NORMAL.

PS: Li arc looking at your picture from last year - the mount had already collapsed. There is no air space at the bottom and you can see when it has torn away at the top....

The fact the top part is torn is showing that it has collapsed and the vibrations are transmitted far more easily through the rubber (downwards) than they are through the air space (that is normally present at the bottom of a healthy mount).

In situ as per saab photo, there should be gap at the top and the bottom, otherwise the mount has failed.




Last edited by S900t8v; 31st July 2012 at 07:52 AM.
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  #325  
Old 5th August 2012
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New mounts in, left one is ScanTech, right is Febi Bilstein. Thought it would completely fix the problem, but now the vibration is full on at stationary and idle, like the engine is resting directly on the frame (more than twice as bad as while turning right before). I didn't have time to check on the problem since I had another engagement, but I will have to check on it next week when I've got time again. Hoping it's just because some tool is left in there or something, because this makes absolutely no sense.

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  #326  
Old 5th August 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by li Arc View Post
New mounts in, left one is ScanTech, right is Febi Bilstein. Thought it would completely fix the problem, but now the vibration is full on at stationary and idle, like the engine is resting directly on the frame (more than twice as bad as while turning right before). I didn't have time to check on the problem since I had another engagement, but I will have to check on it next week when I've got time again. Hoping it's just because some tool is left in there or something, because this makes absolutely no sense.

li Arc
did you replace the front? because if it is sagging it will hurt the new mounts..

that's a shame the vibrations are worse, your exhaust system isn't hard bolted to the chassis anywhere?

so it's still a vibration that occurs only while driving regardless of whether clutch is in or out and is twice as bad when turning right?

It's probably an annoying comment but I've always thought your problem was drivers but what have you done to check/test wheel bearings? they usually rumble but I guess vibrations could be possible?
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  #327  
Old 5th August 2012
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So the front was replaced in December, when I got a new mount from Ray; the car has seen 200km's of road since and the front mount still looks terrific. I did loosen it to reduce stress on the mount when replacing the other mounts, but I rebolted them all to 30ftlbs (there was no torque spec on engine mount bolts, but the general spec was 30ftlbs for M10 bolts).

The exhaust is not hard bolted to the chassis, and even if it were previous to the engine pull, there were no such vibrations then. I don't think it's hitting the chassis neither, but I will have to double check, since I haven't had time to look it over since the testing.

The vibrations are present at stationary (the car isn't moving), and is full on...I didn't even dare take it out of a spin. This means the clutch is out. So nothing to do with drivers, wheel bearings, anything suspension related, nada...something weird with some type of placement of something; I hope I don't have to re-do the mounts again. I'll look it over later in the week.

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  #328  
Old 13th August 2012
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Pictures say a thousand words.







This fully explains *everything*. Basically, what happened was the bolt head was too long and connected with the exterior of the engine mount, which was supposed to be buffered by the interior of the engine mount. Before, when I still had the worn mounts, the bolt normally sat just slightly below the curve of the engine mount, not quite touching it at idle. But when I turned right, the worn engine mounts allowed the engine to "fall" left, connecting with the engine mount and thus generating all manner of vibrations. When the old mounts were replaced, the bolt sat higher up (relative to the mount), where the mount curve no longer bypasses the bolt head, so the head was always in contact with the mount housing, transmitting all the vibrations.



The bolt on the right was the problematic bolt originally in the spot. The one just left of it was one of the other engine mount bolts, and the two left of that were new bolts. The bolt on the very left wouldn't fit, so I had to fit in the second bolt to the left (10mm); I would rather have fit a 15mm bolt, but I don't think it'll cause me any problems when it's torqued. The reason why the bolt on the very right was originally fitted was because I thought the rim just below the head was used to fit the countersunk bracket mounting point.



Now, all done.



This was a *seriously* tough nut to crack, especially given the intermittency of the previous symptoms, but I'm glad it's all done and over with now! So this is my contribution: make sure your bolts have enough clearance, whatever you're fitting! And if you're having weird vibration issues, check your mount bracket bolts! Oh, and it seems that new engine mounts do indeed keep that air gap:



I took it out for a bath today, the first in a couple years, and it's too bad I did it so late because while there was winter splash on it, there seems to be a few new rust spots. I'll have to take care of them some time, but for now, I've got bigger things to worry about. It also seems there is something gritty on the paint I couldn't get rid of at the wash, and there are some strange frost-patterns on it. Perhaps I'll see if I can get it detailed.

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  #329  
Old 13th August 2012
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In the meantime, I've got a couple larger scale things to worry about. First off is my main radiator fan isn't working, and it's not the switch. Going through the Bentley, I've determined there is no voltage at any of the test points, but going through the electrical diagrams there seems to be voltage between points 30 and 87 at the relay, so I'm tempted to think there's something wrong with the relay. Is there a way to test the relay?



I found another unknown relay in my spare parts bin, but the pinouts seem different, and there aren't any cars in the yard at the moment, so I won't be able to pull one easily.



It appears there are people selling both types on eBay (one even claiming that his part that looks like my spare works on an 85 turbo), but a local parts shop wants $137 for it and won't be able to get it in for at least a week. I may have to see if I can fine one of the 5-pin ones on eBay and perhaps give that a shot if there's no definitive way to determine whether or not the relay is bad (though there is voltage at 37 and 80).

Next thing is my idle is inconsistent. For the first 5 minutes after startup, it seems okay (although it could be better, but hovers around 800 mostly), but then afterwards it'll start to choke and compensate. This produces some wild oscillations between like 200 RPM and 1.8k RPM, with random duty cycles. I can't figure out what it is, and have tried different AICs, but I think it might have something to do with this:



A while back, I replaced the intake manifold with a new one from the yard because the fuel rail mounting points were stripped and I mangled them further before I found out about helicoils. My original manifold had simply a hole at the top for the AIC outlet/manifold inlet that was a slight interference fit for the brass elbow, and could be sealed with some compound. With this new manifold, I think it was supposed to be designed for a plastic elbow fitting with a barbed end, so the metal elbow just manages to fit. However, when there's oil (which there was bound to be because of the PCV system), the fitting can move about a bit. I might see if I can find a replacement at the yard sometime, but in the meantime I might try relocating the last vacuum line from the elbow and perhaps go to Home Depot and find a plastic elbow to use for now.

Next up is lighting, where my low beams aren't working but my high beams are. But that'll need more testing and it's not standard (I've now got an H4-4 HID system with 4 ballasts that I'll have to go through).

I'm also chugging along with the proposed turn signal stalk modifications to improve the wearability of the aluminum track that causes signal stalk sag. I just needed to know if anything sits directly behind the track so that I know whether or not I can use screws to replace part of the track with. It appears screws are the order of the day.



We shall soon be seeing some progress with these modifications, I imagine. For now, I need to figure out the idling problem because it's making the car feel very sloppy and unrefined.

But hey, at least it's back on the road now!

li Arc
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  #330  
Old 13th August 2012
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What a ripper of a case! Glad you sorted it, glad you believe me (well the manual) now regarding the mounts! The bolt factor! who would have thought!
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  #331  
Old 13th August 2012
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Yahoo!!"" I'm so glad that you finally find the issue, I have never follow anyone on twitter, Facebook or a blog like your thread.

Now about the relay, I think that I have two spares, pm me.
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  #332  
Old 13th August 2012
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Thanks for the support guys, I've got another question. I filled up on Mobil 1 10W30 synth and have run 233kms on it so far, but I've been reading how break-in should be performed with conventional oil or perhaps break-in oil. I also came across Mobil's own recommendations, but it appears they talk about newer engine technology allowing for this. I can probably find purpose break-in oil from a local shop, but just want to know if this is needed, or if I can just break in longer or something...I was originally planning a 1500km break-in period.

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  #333  
Old 13th August 2012
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I'd hate to say it, but it might be too late. The purpose to the break in oil or the conventional oil is to seat the rings. I'm no pro engine builder, but that is what I understand when talking to the pros. When they go to the engine dyno with a "brand new" engine they see the torque and horsepower begin to climb after the 3rd or 4th WOT pull. After that it levels off. They contribute that to the rings seating. Then they can begin tuning.
When I did my rebuild I used Castrol 10-30 GTX for about 500 miles.
Redline synthetic after that.

BTW nice work on finally finding the vibration culprit. To me it looks like a counter sunk screw goes in that location. Kinda like what you would find on a brake rotor, Torx drive. '88+ brakes
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  #334  
Old 13th August 2012
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Hmm...maybe I'll just stick with this for now then, I imagine as long as I give it good varied driving conditions and a longer wear period it should be okay (although, I haven't really gone over atmospheric for boost...should I?). It looks like results are a bit inconsistent across the board, with people with the same (new) cars driving under the same conditions with the same oil getting different results, whether that oil is mineral or synthetic. Also other people who are doing rebuilds on older cars than ours that had good results using Mobil 1 for break in...it appears the oil isn't the only variable in this equation.

As for the countersunk bolt, that's what I thought the bolt I pulled out was, because I don't recall a screw used for the engine mount bracket. You'll notice apart from the countersunk, it appears there is space for that shoulder for the bracket as well...I think it was a logical place to put that bolt, as I don't see anywhere else that the bolt could have gone (it seems that's the only countersunk hole in the bracket). At any rate, I've used the flat head bolt, but seeing as there are like 4 or 5 bolts in total on the mount, all torqued to between 15 and 17ft lbs, I think it should be fine.

li Arc
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  #335  
Old 15th August 2012
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Okay, so I managed to get the low beams working again (just some contact problem at the system's tiny fusebox), and it appears my main rad fans are working again, so two down.

But two more new problems (which are most likely related to each other, as well as to the last problem, so hopefully we're still down to one problem). When I put the switch to Run position, but without starting the car, I hear the fuel pump running, which isn't supposed to happen. If I try this a couple more times, intermittently you will hear the fuel pump relay click-click-click like 7 to 10 times, then go quiet (as well as the fuel pump). This also affect interior lighting (which shuts off with the click then resumes immediately). Perplexed by it, I thought I'd deal with it later, until I started the car, ran it for a bit, and then tried to shut it off and nothing! The car still runs, even at Lock position and I pull the key out! The RPMs will first plummet to almost stall, then start to rise, and the instrument panel lights and head lights go out, but all the instrumentation is still live (tach, fuel, temp, etc). After about 2.2kRPM or so, it'll stop rising, but may dip and rise again. If I put it back into Run position, the ECU is running again, and pulls it back down to idle. Luckily I've experienced a no-start situation before because the instrument cluster fuse is busted (fuse 22), so I pull that which shuts the car down. This is the biggest problem at the moment; I did try replacing the fuel pump and main system relays, but no change.

The other problem is that idle is still really iffy. It is able to idle at ~800RPM, so it's not a vacuum issue, but you will feel it "cut in and out", as if the ECU is suddenly not paying attention, and RPMs may drop, be compensated for, then go back to ~800RPM. The bigger the drop, the bigger the compensation; the drop may be as little as 50 RPM (these drops are not a normal idle hunting, but digital, like an immediate cut down 50 RPM then compensate) or as big as almost stalling (600RPM drop or more). I tried replacing the AIC already, but that didn't do it. I'm wondering what the problem is, but am almost certain it's electrical in nature. My biggest suspicion now is that I'm running a -538 ECU, which I think was used on LH2.2 '88 cars? Something like that, on recommendation from Jak Stoll when I was still running his chip (not any longer, however). I will try switching out to the native '85 ECU (-520 I think?) over the weekend, and go from there. Maybe I'll see if I can post a video.

li Arc
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  #336  
Old 16th August 2012
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Quote:
But two more new problems (which are most likely related to each other, as well as to the last problem, so hopefully we're still down to one problem). When I put the switch to Run position, but without starting the car, I hear the fuel pump running, which isn't supposed to happen. If I try this a couple more times, intermittently you will hear the fuel pump relay click-click-click like 7 to 10 times, then go quiet (as well as the fuel pump). This also affect interior lighting (which shuts off with the click then resumes immediately). Perplexed by it, I thought I'd deal with it later, until I started the car, ran it for a bit, and then tried to shut it off and nothing! The car still runs, even at Lock position and I pull the key out! The RPMs will first plummet to almost stall, then start to rise, and the instrument panel lights and head lights go out, but all the instrumentation is still live (tach, fuel, temp, etc). After about 2.2kRPM or so, it'll stop rising, but may dip and rise again. If I put it back into Run position, the ECU is running again, and pulls it back down to idle. Luckily I've experienced a no-start situation before because the instrument cluster fuse is busted (fuse 22), so I pull that which shuts the car down. This is the biggest problem at the moment; I did try replacing the fuel pump and main system relays, but no change.
Similar problem happened in my SPG and it was the ground cable beside the ignition key that was loose.


Quote:
The other problem is that idle is still really iffy. It is able to idle at ~800RPM, so it's not a vacuum issue, but you will feel it "cut in and out", as if the ECU is suddenly not paying attention, and RPMs may drop, be compensated for, then go back to ~800RPM. The bigger the drop, the bigger the compensation; the drop may be as little as 50 RPM (these drops are not a normal idle hunting, but digital, like an immediate cut down 50 RPM then compensate) or as big as almost stalling (600RPM drop or more). I tried replacing the AIC already, but that didn't do it. I'm wondering what the problem is, but am almost certain it's electrical in nature. My biggest suspicion now is that I'm running a -538 ECU, which I think was used on LH2.2 '88 cars? Something like that, on recommendation from Jak Stoll when I was still running his chip (not any longer, however). I will try switching out to the native '85 ECU (-520 I think?) over the weekend, and go from there. Maybe I'll see if I can post a video.
I'm in the process of solving this and I think that is related to ignition components, I changed AMM, AIC, ECU ( I can flash my own EPROMS now ) and so much stuff and it never got better but once I changed rotor and cap it got much better so now in the process to change the cables and set the timing to 16 BTDC ( dunno if is off or not yet) and we will see if that works.


PePe.
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  #337  
Old 17th August 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamengual View Post
Similar problem happened in my SPG and it was the ground cable beside the ignition key that was loose.
Cool, from my previous problem with replacing the whole ignition switch housing, I've still got a brand new ignition switch lying around somewhere (or maybe that's what's in there, but that means I've got spares lying around), so my next plan of attack was to check or replace the switch. Looks like we've got some similar ideas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamengual View Post
I'm in the process of solving this and I think that is related to ignition components, I changed AMM, AIC, ECU ( I can flash my own EPROMS now ) and so much stuff and it never got better but once I changed rotor and cap it got much better so now in the process to change the cables and set the timing to 16 BTDC ( dunno if is off or not yet) and we will see if that works.
I'm convinced it's some type of electrical (like ECU or sensor) issue, but I will check the ignition system. If I recall correctly, I replaced the rotor and cap when I did the rebuild, but I'll doublecheck the connections, as well as the ignition amplifier. Maybe also do a grounding check. If nothing, I might still go ahead with the ECU swap, but I recall one of my -520 ECUs are busted and don't have a way of checking which one...

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  #338  
Old 19th August 2012
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I didn't have time to delve into the ignition switch issue today, but I did take a look through regular culprits, like the AMM and the ignition system. All looked good, and I did tweak the AMM a bit (just to get it to 380 ohms dead on), but no change. I will be revisiting the ignition switch tomorrow, hopefully.

I took a video of the erratic idling issue, as well as the weird ignition shutoff issue which I'm hoping someone else can also confirm is very likely the ignition switch or associated wiring. If I don't get an answer on the idling problem, I will probably try switching out to a native '85 ECU (apparently not -520, but -515).

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  #339  
Old 23rd August 2012
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In case anyone was wondering, the ignition/idling issue is still ongoing, and is being discussed here. It's possible that the two symptoms are related, but we'll see where we get with it. I'm hoping that it's something like a relay or perhaps even the ECU, which I'll double check later in the week or on the weekend.

Someone in the post mentioned that it's possible it's degraded wiring, and this has always been an issue with the '85 in the back of my mind. Up till now, I've been fairly lucky with the electronics, and while they're not super tip-top, it hasn't yet let me down. However, I have done some wiring repairs so far, and I can see some potential problems waiting to occur (such as turbo knock sensor and APC valve). In the long run, it's really a matter of time until the inevitable occurs and things go south. If things ever turn out to be wiring issues, I may have to consider replacing the harness. And if that were the case, I may very well consider an upgrade instead. I've been holding off on MS for a while now because of two things: 1) wiring harness (and making my own vs. using an adapter, though in this scenario the former would be better), and 2) tuning from scratch. I've gathered most of the parts for MS including the trigger wheel and EDIS, but I haven't found the motivation to work on it yet, especially given the long hiatus since I've last driven the c900. It is also possible that even with the system up and running, rolling road tuning is going to take a long time to dial in even back to original specs. But I'm beginning to read up on T5, and it looks intriguing, especially because I can eliminate the two showstoppers...but I'm only toying with the idea now because if the wiring on the '85 holds, I'm in no rush and will gather parts at leisure. There is a '96 9000T at the yard...

First and foremost is to try to figure out what the problem is with the electricals; I'm not entirely convinced it's wiring, to be honest. The symptoms aren't consistent with constant shorts or opens.

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  #340  
Old 27th August 2012
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Just slogging through the wiring inspections now, as you'll have noticed in the erratic shutdown thread, and still need to go through the +15 distribution line, which might take me more time. At the moment, I can drive it and sometimes it shuts down properly, but I'm not keen on stalling it or pulling fuses when it doesn't. I think one of the key things are to look at why the fuel pump can start before the engine cranks, as the ECU requires a crank signal to start it up. I can't see how the system could s**** a crank signal somehow, and I've swapped in a couple other ECUs with the same results. Something's really amiss there. I'll continue to update the erratic shutdown thread as new developments come up.

In the meantime, I decided to do something more fun and tangible to take my mind off the shutdown problem, so I replaced a bunch of incandescent lamps with LEDs, and replaced the flasher with an LED flasher. This seems to work well even with incandescents (I'm missing one flasher bulb). The flasher is a Japanese-style relay, so the E (31) and B (49) lines, the two left and right wires in the relay holder, had to be swapped; L (49a) stays where it is. Seeing as it was <$10 for two relays with free shipping vs. $13 for each Euro-style with expensive shipping, I didn't have any problems doing the swap. Also, I did this:













The screws were filed down by hand due to the limited space in there, and is fairly even with the original surface (not fully, but enough so). For the ledge and indent, my coworker used the mill and a PCB router bit on it to precisely machine it down some, and while it's not exactly like the original, I was quite happy with it. I lubed it up with some moly grease, and refitted the signal stalk to the steering column and it feels fantastic. But of course, the feel isn't the entire purpose of this mod, but more importantly the longevity of it. If I read the screws correctly, they are equivalent to a 10.9 bolt, so I'm thinking it's fairly durable (although perhaps more tensile than compressive?) steel. I'll let you guys know how this works out in half a year (assuming I'll have been driving the car for half a year by then).

I know this isn't as exciting as new forged pistons or a T5 swap, but I don't necessarily need that right now, I just want to enjoy the c900 again! Oh, and credit goes to Peva for coming up with this idea!

li Arc
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