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  #61  
Old 3rd July 2012
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rawill rawill is offline
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Although there are all sorts off issues that can cause us problems I have often discovered rom reading on here that as soon as you start to have ignition/fuelling type issues do the basics. That often eliminates the problems.

For me basics means, Plugs, air filter, fuel filter, DI, thermostat, and maybe fuel pressure, CPS can be an issue. These seem to be the common problems, and I think in the order i listed them.

On the DI, I do not have a lot of expeience but the little I have had means I would have it on my to check list very early. I tuned and ecu fro a friend.After I did the tune all was good, and I am not sure why at a later stage he replaced his DI, he said his car was transformed. That it just went better with a newer DI.

Maybe this has no relevance to your situation, but if it was me and I could easily swap with a known good DI just for a test run I would make the swap. If only to discover it is not the DI. I guess we get scared off because new ones are so expensive.

Also realise these comments come from a guy who was an apprentice mechanic back in the late 60s early 70s, I haven't kept up to date as much as I could.

Good luck finding your fault, I will keep reading.
/R

I do hope it is not your DI, but if it is nothing else with fix it.
I remember being real frustrated when mine would not work under boost after I had done a stage 1 tune on my 97 9000CD, LPT.
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Last edited by rawill; 3rd July 2012 at 03:27 PM.
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  #62  
Old 3rd July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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I took my long drive today, and I kept the Tech 2 up the entire time. It took multiple snapshots while i was on the highway, I will post the pictures below.

I did also notice that when watching throttle position on the Tech 2, it said that the throttle was at 12.4% when i had my foot completley off the gas, but the car idles normally at 750rpm. It also said that when the throttle was all the way open, (both foot on the gas and moving the throttle by hand) was at 88.6%. Is this normal or do i have a faulty TPS sensor?

Attatched are the pictures. As a guide:

The thick solid line is Intake Air Temp: AVG 154 degrees F

The thin solid line is the knock sensor reading. at idle it held steady at the bottom of the graph, but when cruising and accelerating, it spiked periodically. the spikes would come in a group of 2-5 then stop for about 3-6 minutes

The dotted line is throttle position: In both pictures it is low, holding about 15-20% throttle. (highway and biway cruising. 50mph and 72mph)
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  #63  
Old 3rd July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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Knock vs TPS doesn't tell much of a story.

Try these parameters during progressive acceleration from low to mid RPM in high gear:

-MAP
-Injector pulse width
-Upstream O2 signal
-Knock
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  #64  
Old 3rd July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsen View Post
Knock vs TPS doesn't tell much of a story.

Try these parameters during progressive acceleration from low to mid RPM in high gear:

-MAP
-Injector pulse width
-Upstream O2 signal
-Knock
I can run 3 at a time. which 3 would be most helpful?
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  #65  
Old 3rd July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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Try these:

Injector pulse width
Upstream O2 signal
Knock
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  #66  
Old 3rd July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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Here is O2, Knock, and boost.
I will follow up with the other combination in a few.

O2 is the dotted line
Knock is the thin solid line
Boost is solid thick line

Image 1 and 2 are fair acceleration (30-50%throttle)
Image 3 is cruising at 25mph
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  #67  
Old 3rd July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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Did the knock spikes coincide with bucking?
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  #68  
Old 3rd July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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for the most part. Occasionally not, but usually the car would buck, noticed more when going uphills.
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  #69  
Old 3rd July 2012
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I don't see a smoking gun in the last series. In the second image, knock doesn't correlate with boost at all. O2 signal appears normal. Looking forward to your pulse width data.
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  #70  
Old 5th July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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sorry about the delayed response. It has been quite a busy day!
Either way, I went for a drive and hooked up the scan tool agian and this time recorded injector pulse width, boost, and knock. Still no noticeable correlation, though some images have some interesting activity. and sorry that the phone refelecting on the scan tool makes it tough to see. My roommates was takinig pictures while i drove and the sun was beating right on him


Knock : Dotted Line
Injection Duration: Thin Solid Line
Boost: Think Solid Line

The first photo shows two small knocks while boosting, and then a large knock when the throttle snaps shut. Though I have been told that decel knocks are normal, espically when the throttle is snapped.

The second photo shows two random knocks, which occured while accelerating out of my driveway. very gentle acceleration because the stop sign was a block ahead.

The Third Photo shows a few more knocks while boosting at about 5-7 pounds
Still no correlation showing up

The Fourth photo shows two small knocks and a decent knock while cruising accelerating at 3/4 throttle, running 8-10 pounds of boost.

The fifth photo is interesting. I caught it late but if you notice, it does knock, but those were after snapping the throttle so I wasnt worried about em. but if you see the Injection Duration, notice its oscillating just before i closed the throttle. There was no surging felt, car was on a flat level road.

So there are quite a few interesting tidbits in there. Let me know what you think!
Oh, and I had the car surging up hills agian today, though when it was the scan tool showed no problems. Knocks were not happening, and injection duration was steady. but when the car was surging, so was boost. So Im at a loss for why its happening :P

And my last point to make, my Intake Air Temp hold pretty steady between 130-170 degrees F, and my coolant temp holds steadily between 198-224 when the A/c is on and 191-205 when the A/c is off. are these temps normal? I went on a 5.5 mile, 14 minute drive, with an average speed of 37mph. When i stopped at my destination coolant temp was 208 degrees F. and intake air temp was 164 degrees F. Outside air temp is 88 with 74% humidity

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Last edited by MrMuffin667; 5th July 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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  #71  
Old 7th July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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Pulse width seems normal and tracks manifold pressure closely.

224F is a bit high for the coolant, but if the fan is able to cycle, I wouldn't worry.

What octane fuel are you using?

It looks like your electronics are in order, and that this really could be detonation. A top end flush with something like Seafoam may help. It's best done before an oil change.
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  #72  
Old 7th July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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As long as I've owned this car, (2.5 years) it's run 93 octane.

And seafoam eh? What will that do to fix the knock?
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  #73  
Old 8th July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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I tore into a B234E tonight with just 90K miles on it. The combustion chambers were covered in soot, but there were also layers of flaky, paper-thin carbon. The presence of any foreign matter will bump up your compression ratio, but supposedly, the flaky stuff has a tendency to glow and light the charge off before its time. Seafoam through the intake manifold should break up and eject these deposits.

It's worth exhausting the cheap/free/easy options before the rest.
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  #74  
Old 8th July 2012
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rawill rawill is offline
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Many years ago, (1970s) Triumph PI cars would "carbon up", no amount of tuning would get them right. It was worst with the owners who were "retired". They simply didn't drive the cars hard enough, eventually we resorted to taking the cars for a "good hard run". That mean't taking to redline in lower gears, and going on and off the throttle in the lower gears until the exhaust burnt clean.

Often at the start of one of thse runs you could barely see the road behind you for all the blue smoke etc. The cars used to buck and hesitate until they started to run clean.

Make of this comment what you will, but some carbon in the top of the pistons could cause some detonation issues.

But hard pulls should have cleared the worst of it.
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  #75  
Old 8th July 2012
Twinsen Twinsen is offline
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Yes... the good old Italian tuneup. I would still suggest using a solvent, as he's knocking as-is. Pulling the head off this engine, I couldn't believe how fragile these deposits were. I could flick them off easily, yet they managed to cling on through millions of combustion cycles.
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  #76  
Old 8th July 2012
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rawill rawill is offline
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Exactly, works well on some cars, a Fiat Uno I bought really needed one, took ages to clear, it was only an 1100, but goodness was it gunked up!


I am kind of begging off as you guys know more than I do.

But have we mentioned a faulty APC/BPC valve, does it need a good clean with carb or brake cleaner to remove some of the gunk that builds up in there.

I have heard of those who clean it every time they change the oil,
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  #77  
Old 8th July 2012
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Twinsen.
Your post on cleaning seems to have got lost.
I agree, I don't think they need cleaning that often, but they do get a bit gunked, I have cleaned mine, but only once in about 20-40000km.
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  #78  
Old 8th July 2012
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You're right about the cleaning rawill, which is why I removed my post. My car is set up a bit differently and doesn't run crankcase vapor through the turbo, so I forgot. The only thing my BPC valve sees is filtered air. If you're on the stock PCV configuration, crankcase vapor is pushed through it as well.
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  #79  
Old 8th July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinsen View Post
You're right about the cleaning rawill, which is why I removed my post. My car is set up a bit differently and doesn't run crankcase vapor through the turbo, so I forgot. The only thing my BPC valve sees is filtered air. If you're on the stock PCV configuration, crankcase vapor is pushed through it as well.
I have reconfigured mine as well. I only run filtered air through the turbo. My Pcv system has an oil catch can and filter I set up and installed
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  #80  
Old 9th July 2012
MrMuffin667 MrMuffin667 is offline
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So I went and talked to a buddy of my Dad's, who is an old Saab 9000 tech, and the first thing he noticed was the Short term fuel trim was high. He thinks that the problem is either a clogged fuel filter or a vaccumm leak.

He also pointed out that my brake pedal is quite soft, and has not nearly as much braking force as it should. We replaced my master cylinder with a spare he had laying around, and it didnt change anything. So he thinks there is a vaccum leak in the brake booster diaphragm, causing a llean condition which explains the fuel trim. Also, upon inspecting my new spark plugs we found white ash on the electrode.

So, Im going to switch out my brake booster, and see where that leaves us.
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