Pistons, cams, and a gt28

[Bestdayever]

Got some extra money rolling in.
Thinking about getting a gt28 for the Saab.
Pistons, cams, clutch, and the LSD won't be hard.
But how in the hell do I fit a gt28 behind my motor? I know I need a new manifold. Does anyone make them?

[datonyb]

why not use another turbo with the same flanges makes an easier job by far

eg swapping the tdo4 out for the tdo4 19 on a 2004 aero is bolt on swap

[pacotaco]

because a gt28 is a much better turbo than a td04...

you do not need cams that is unnecessary, as for the turbo manifold just look at the cobalt ss's its the same manifold foot print you just probably want to pick up a log mani. theres several places like hahne, vulcan, ebay...ect you can search and find tons of manifolds.

Do keep in mind that if you do a custom turbo set up you will need to use an aftermarket bov, probably a external wastegate, and you will probably have to rig up a new intake pipe to the turbo, and not only that your gonna have to reflange your downpipe, plug your coolant lines, re do your oil lines (gt28 does not use banjos). and last but not least your going to have to set it up so your intercooler lines hook up. hooking up the turbo alone is not an easy job, but if you want an lsd and clutch your going to be doing a **** ton of work.

[Bestdayever]

Yeah.. The 19t would be nice but it wouldn't make 350whp easily. I have a guy who can redo my current downpipe. And I know about the wastegate and Bov. Idk what I'm gonna do yet. My girl started talking me into getting wheels made. So who knows. Maybe I'll just do a 19t with pistons and get wheels.

[Jn2]

19t wheel and e85 should get you into 350hp. I have been talking to john about it for a while. Those are actually my plans for my car. Doing the 19t upgrade and keeping a unleaded and e85 tune loaded on the handheld.

[rb88]

That's assuming he has access to e85.. It's not everywhere. As far as the piping I agree you would have to make a new intake and piping for the intercooler.. which would also have to be upgraded but that's all easy enough to do once you know the diameters you want and how you're going to route the piping it's as easy buying either a piping kit or piece by piece and mounting a new intercooler. What about injectors do you have them already? Jn2 and paco would probably know better than me but it seems that the common upgrade for the 93 are 60lb injectors but if you wanna make 350 reliably on premium pump you might want to upgrade the pump to. All of this is new to me though I'm used to the Asian market so I could be way off.

Paco, why do you think cams are such a bad idea? I'm just curious, if he's going to want to make a lot more than 300whp it might not be a bad idea. Do you know what the rule of thumb is on our valve-train is before upgrade should be pursued?

[Tech@EPR]

GT28R turbochargers are internally gated from Garrett direct. No need in an aftermarket external wastegate. You can purchase an intake adapter if you get the compact version of the GT28R. The adapter turns the 2 bolt flange into a coupler fitting where you can just slip an intake pipe/coupler onto it and run it from there. Aftermarket BOV is suggested and I agree with that. The increase in CFM you'll want to vent off compressor surge as best as you can unless you want to recirc the surge into the intake which will keep spool up but you'll loose that whoosh/bov sound that most like to hear.

GT28Rs are water cooled and oil lubricated. He can retain those or at best build better lines that use new billet banjo fittings with braided lines (I would suggest this). New oil lines are A MUST and you have to use a restrictor inline on the feed line as BB turbos require less oil to run properly.

IC piping will most likely have to be adapted to suit fit. but if you are going to this extent to get things working how you want...thats just part of the game. Obviously you'll need a different downpipe fabbed or at best modify your current one if you have one with the 5 bolt garrett flange. You can buy a 5 bolt to a vband configureation from ATP Turbo and that will be a breeze for install/removal at any point. As for the exhaust manifold...I think there is a T3 to T25 conversion flange you can buy that will work but I'm not sure on total deck height of the unit to where it would still allow the turbo to fit under the hood with adequate clearance. You have a few things to look into but if done right..can prove very worth while.

I've nothing for on you drivetrain as Im not too famililar with the drivetrains on these vehicles but engine wise I can help out as best as I can. I build race engines for a living and use the GT28R turbos everyday on many of my builds. Its a great turbo to use and has a lot of response for the size turbocharger it is.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by rb88

That's assuming he has access to e85.. It's not everywhere. As far as the piping I agree you would have to make a new intake and piping for the intercooler.. which would also have to be upgraded but that's all easy enough to do once you know the diameters you want and how you're going to route the piping it's as easy buying either a piping kit or piece by piece and mounting a new intercooler. What about injectors do you have them already? Jn2 and paco would probably know better than me but it seems that the common upgrade for the 93 are 60lb injectors but if you wanna make 350 reliably on premium pump you might want to upgrade the pump to. All of this is new to me though I'm used to the Asian market so I could be way off.

Paco, why do you think cams are such a bad idea? I'm just curious, if he's going to want to make a lot more than 300whp it might not be a bad idea. Do you know what the rule of thumb is on our valve-train is before upgrade should be pursued?

If your shooting for 300+ on pump your gonna need atleast 80 to 100 lb injectors. As for cams I don't think they are bad I never said that, but our cams are meant for boost I see no point in changing the timing when our cams have been shown to run just fine at 400hp. The other issue is what cams are you going to run and your going to need to get the tune in person I'm pretty sure.

[Tech@EPR]

What!?!....a mere 370cc is more than enough to use to make 300+whp on pump. Why would you suggest such a high lbs/cc fuel injector. Camshaft I agree are well enough as is but its only as good as the cylinder head output. Cams/head are a combo strictly to themselves.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by Tech@EPR

What!?!....a mere 370cc is more than enough to use to make 300+whp on pump. Why would you suggest such a high lbs/cc fuel injector. Camshaft I agree are well enough as is but its only as good as the cylinder head output. Cams/head are a combo strictly to themselves.

Um no if that were the case i could 300 to the wheels on stock injectors. Stock injectors are 36 lb goto a fuel to horse power calc you need around 60 to get past 300 to the wheels, but i personally would wana be on the safe side and run 80 (and if u were running e85 u would need 80s)

[Tech@EPR]

A stage III twinturbo Z32 (what I build -intake/exhaust/chip) puts down well over 300whp. Stock injectors are 370cc aka 35lb injectors. I dont see why he would need such huge injectors for the power he's after. 72lb injectors I use in builds making 7-800whp. My suggestion if he were to upgrade injectors would be around 450-500cc. That is MORE than enough fuel for that power.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by Tech@EPR

A stage III twinturbo Z32 (what I build -intake/exhaust/chip) puts down well over 300whp. Stock injectors are 370cc aka 35lb injectors. I dont see why he would need such huge injectors for the power he's after. 72lb injectors I use in builds making 7-800whp. My suggestion if he were to upgrade injectors would be around 450-500cc. That is MORE than enough fuel for that power.

That is a v6 it also has two more cylinders, two more injectors, and one liter of displacement compared to an inline 4. V6's require less fuel injection per cylender to make the same power. Just use a fuel injector calculator, also maptun, and nordic require 60+ lb injectors for their stage 4 and 5, also maptun requires 80 lb for the 400 hp gt28 build

[SaabMick]

Where do they talk about the GT28 Maptun build?

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by SaabMick

Where do they talk about the GT28 Maptun build?

Maptun list that they used 630cc injctors on the 408hp neobros car (not sure if thats crank or wheel i would assume crank).

[rb88]

Crank is a ****ty way to dyno tune a car anway I hate how all of the tuners for this car talk about bhp. Chasis tunning is a much better way to tune a car because you are putting the engine "under load." It's a bull**** selling point and the reason that car companies use it is to push sales.. 210bhp sounds a lot better than 178.5whp(no reference but average loss due to accessories and drive-train FWD car is generally agreed to be ~15%). Paco 630cc injectors are 60 lb injectors probably running close to 100% duty cycle so that gives me another reason to not like maptun because that's irresponsible tunning, you should never run 100% duty, in this case I agree with Paco. Check here if you don't believe me http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4 If you want to make more than 350 WHP you would definately need more than 60lb injectors to be safe and price wise you wouldn't want to skimp the extra couple dollars to get 70lb(735cc) injectors.

As for the stock cams being "fine." You would upgrade the cams on a performance engine to give you the results you want. They make cams for the LSJ and they would work fine on this application. Tunning for cams isn't that difficult as it only requires the mechanic to know what your lift and duration is and he would adjust the timing accordingly to give you the desired results.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by rb88

Crank is a ****ty way to dyno tune a car anway I hate how all of the tuners for this car talk about bhp. Chasis tunning is a much better way to tune a car because you are putting the engine "under load." It's a bull**** selling point and the reason that car companies use it is to push sales.. 210bhp sounds a lot better than 178.5whp(no reference but average loss due to accessories and drive-train FWD car is generally agreed to be ~15%). Paco 630cc injectors are 60 lb injectors probably running close to 100% duty cycle so that gives me another reason to not like maptun because that's irresponsible tunning, you should never run 100% duty, in this case I agree with Paco. Check here if you don't believe me http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4 If you want to make more than 350 WHP you would definately need more than 60lb injectors to be safe and price wise you wouldn't want to skimp the extra couple dollars to get 70lb(735cc) injectors.

As for the stock cams being "fine." You would upgrade the cams on a performance engine to give you the results you want. They make cams for the LSJ and they would work fine on this application. Tunning for cams isn't that difficult as it only requires the mechanic to know what your lift and duration is and he would adjust the timing accordingly to give you the desired results.

i agree with you about upgrading cam's, but besides the fact that i have no clue what the stock cam lobing is and the fact that the stock cams are boost designed cams i see no point. I can understand if you are defiantly mechanically inclined and you know where you want to be power wise and how you want your power band to be; that cams would be a good upgrade if you do it right. Im not playing cams out im just saying that there are no dyno results and no R&D put into any aftermarket cams available for the b207r and there has been no tuning results, and we have been shown that the stock cams can support 415hp 450nm with a 2871 and 60lb injectors.

[Bestdayever]

I already have 60# injectors right now. I figured I would need 60# or bigger.
I ruled out the 19t already, it's a completely different turbo and I don't want to run max psi and risk blowing the turbo, I'd rather get a turbo that makes the same whp and run less boost on it.

I'm probably not gonna do cams, but the pistons are probably needed. Although the cobalt ss motor makes over 400whp on stock motor, and I haven't been able to find a difference yet except someone said they have an extra bolt on the flywheel.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by Bestdayever

I already have 60# injectors right now. I figured I would need 60# or bigger.
I ruled out the 19t already, it's a completely different turbo and I don't want to run max psi and risk blowing the turbo, I'd rather get a turbo that makes the same whp and run less boost on it.

I'm probably not gonna do cams, but the pistons are probably needed. Although the cobalt ss motor makes over 400whp on stock motor, and I haven't been able to find a difference yet except someone said they have an extra bolt on the flywheel.

you should never blow a good mitshu turbo, hell i boost mine to 26psi all day and its been doing that for atleast 40k miles. As for the turbo my suggestion is the gt28 or a precision turbo equivlant. as for pistons you can take a risk and not run them, but its about 500 dollars worth of insurance that you dont have to pay 2000 dollars for a whole new motor. My suggestion is weisco, wossner, je, mahle, and diamond piston in that order, and if you are looking lsj is the same but some of the company's do specific for the saab like weisco wossner and je but the list them as the same as the lsj.

just a side note another turbo to look at is the 20g, and if you look at the precision their cheaper journal bearing turbos are good and cheap, but their ball bearing's are amazing.

[Tech@EPR]

Originally Posted by pacotaco

That is a v6 it also has two more cylinders, two more injectors, and one liter of displacement compared to an inline 4. V6's require less fuel injection per cylender to make the same power. Just use a fuel injector calculator, also maptun, and nordic require 60+ lb injectors for their stage 4 and 5, also maptun requires 80 lb for the 400 hp gt28 build

I was under the impression his was a V6. I have no idea why any of those tuners require individuals to run such high injectors. I fully understand needing more fuel based on displacement but 80lb injectors is A LOT of fuel for such minimal HP when other platforms around the same displacement make more than 400HP on a similar sized turbo. But, if thats what they suggest then do it up as in the end if the setup is tuned for those parameters in needing those parts to use in conjunction, theres simply no way around it.

[pacotaco]

Originally Posted by Tech@EPR

I was under the impression his was a V6. I have no idea why any of those tuners require individuals to run such high injectors. I fully understand needing more fuel based on displacement but 80lb injectors is A LOT of fuel for such minimal HP when other platforms around the same displacement make more than 400HP on a similar sized turbo. But, if thats what they suggest then do it up as in the end if the setup is tuned for those parameters in needing those parts to use in conjunction, theres simply no way around it.

well i was wrong you only need 60's to get up to 300's, but either way on the i4s you need 42+ to get to 300 and 60+ to get past im sure you would need 80s for e85 since you have to push more fuel.