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NG900 & OG9-3 Workshop NG900 (1994 to 1998) & OG9-3 (1999-2002) & '03 Convertible Technical Forum

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  #81  
Old 10th June 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Basically what happened was that I was short on time and in a rush (not unusual lately but not how I prefer things etc) and in the excitement of possibly figuring out a way to at least lower the 5th bow so it could seal against the tonneau and stop leaking back into th car when it rains etc I just grabbed my leads and a spare motorcycle type battery and put the power to the two wires. When nothing happened in either polarity etc I then thought about the switches in the bag and disconnecting the plug so that power would be going to the motor only and not also to the source that normally powers it.

If I fried anything I know its my fault for not waiting for when I had more time, but I needed to make an appointment and the boat was being a pain and took a lot longer than usual as the outdrive was not cooperating and was a bear to get installed etc.

Hope I didn't mess up either but bad as Saab parts may be they are a bargain compared to most things marine lol.

I do not have an electrical diagram for the car so I have no idea where the leads to the plug come from and if applying 12 CDC to it could create a problem.

I guess if the switches for the bag position tell the system to stop power to the lock of the 5th bow there is a chance the leads could come from a switch or some sort of module etc but again I really do not know the system and since the car was not on or running it may just have been a dead lead and that would explain slight small spark that was like a completed circuit etc.

Maybe I was just once again allowing the car to get the best of me lol.
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  #82  
Old 10th June 2012
john bernard john bernard is offline
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The wires to the 5th bow latch come directly from the TSAS control unit which is located behind the trim in the 'trunk' on the left side. It is marked ASC for American Sunroof Company. All of the info from microswitches, pots, latches and manual swiches goes into that TSAS box and all the power to operate the system comes out of that box.
I don't understand how you applied power to the wires w/o disconnecting the wires as disconnecting is the easy and quick way to get access to a bare metal terminal to apply power.
Somewhere in a earlier thread of rls120 I provided a reference to a wiring diagram for the vert top system. There is one in WIS, but I've never been able to view or copy it because of some glitch.
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Last edited by john bernard; 10th June 2012 at 08:55 AM.
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  #83  
Old 10th June 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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It was easy as I have two sets of wires with thin needles attached to them. One is for testing power, resistance, etc and the other to power up etc.

The one for testing I made so the ends attach right onto the metal ends if a multi meter and lets get into some really tight spots.

Maybe I better pick up a TSAS just in case.
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  #84  
Old 10th June 2012
john bernard john bernard is offline
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No one in a salvage yard is going to know what a TSAS is, and I doubt that you need one, anyway. But TSAS stands for something like Top Stack Actuating System. Anyway, it is the box containg the 'brain' for the soft top system. All the soft top sensors feed info into it, and it controls power outputs to the motors that make things move.
After you disconnected the wires to the latch motor, did you use the needles thru the wires, or did you contact the disconnected terminals?
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Last edited by john bernard; 10th June 2012 at 04:41 PM.
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  #85  
Old 13th June 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Appreciate the heads up on the tsas etc.

I was planning on finding a pull your own yard (more fun anyhow lol) but had to cancel due to the bad weather.

Figured since I would be in the trunk may as well get any of the parts there or actually any other parts the donor car had that I might need etc.

Will have to wait till next week and hopefully have better weather.

And since you mentioned it most of the yards that are not pull yourself that o know of are not as knowledgeable as you would like, many are somehow clueless (not all lol) and prices typically are not impressive as at least th local ones I know base prices on new OEM and then discount to arrive at a selling point, and anyone who has been around and can access new parts (I know not Saab) for 20-35% off will not find buying used at 50% off any kind of value.

I have three places within a reasonable drive and except for one who on occasion will have a fair price on certain parts I have just ordered online for small stuff, and even have had new windshields installed for less than these guys wanted used.

Sorry for the rant but that stuff just bugs me lol.
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  #86  
Old 13th June 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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On the way I got to the wires.

I just carefully push the needle type leads into the back of the plug where the wires are crimped. If your lucky there is just enough room in the plug that it will help hold the first one in place so you have two hands to get the second one on, and also many plugs are made so that each wire going in has its own little pocket and therefore you can not easily make the POS and NEG come into contact with each other.

Seems to work pretty well.
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  #87  
Old 2nd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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I know its been a while since any update etc, and I am also aware I have missed plenty of very nice "top down" days as well, but I have finally found time to get back to my roof problem and have some new info and questions.

Since I was not able to find any verts at the yards I did manage to visit and still could not come to terms with spending nearly $200 on a new potentiometer I was finally able to persuade an eBay seller to part out one from a tonneau cover motor he was selling.

It is installed now though not plugged in (I am fairly sure I have it in correct position too) as I wanted to be sure there was a chance of it even working without a roof reprogramming, and if I needed to use the original SID that was used with the convertible etc?

I am not so much expecting to get lucky and avoid the hour plus labor at th dealer as much as I want to be sure to vet it right etc and just avoid any more mistakes.

Also does anyone know what reading I might expect to get if I run a multi meter on this thing? I believe its a good one, the seller claims it was working, but I just would like to be able to test it to be sure.

I know when the "guru" was here we were able to pin point the potentiometer as being faulty from the lack of change in voltage when turning it etc, but I have no idea of what readings it should be sending back ti the system. Just in case it is bad the seller offers a two week return window and I am not sure it can get to the dealer in time or not, and I also do not want to present the car for a reprogram with a bad sensor either.

Maybe with a little luck (and a few hundred more lol) I will finally get this roof straightened out and can move on to the other things it could use.
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  #88  
Old 2nd September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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I doubt that it's going to work without a Tech II reset. The values have a very narrow range and two different pots will likely have different values at the ends of the range.
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  #89  
Old 3rd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Bob that was one fast reply lol. Thanks!

That does make sense, and I also remembered that guy who reset everything too so I am going to make an appointment with the local dealer if I can not find an Indie with the techII locally on Monday.

My remaining fear is that I could have purchased a bad potentiometer and then will be throwing away more money when the dealer can't reprogram the roof etc.

I remember from when the guy was here with the techII we measured the voltage on the old unit and it would increase until Turing it about half way and then drop off to zero (proving it was damaged etc) so I hooked up the multi meter to see if this one would read across the entire range etc.

Well thankfully it did have a reading through the entire range, but I have no idea what kind of readings I want to be seeing.

Since the previous one was bad I don't have anything to compare with, and also I ha e no idea if it is supposed to be reading high at one end and low at the other (that's what I believe it should be based on what I saw inside my broken one) and since this one seems to read highest in the exact middle of the range a nd then slowly lower towards both stop points I am a little concerned.

So I guess my question is if there is any way to know what values should be read (in DC V or resistance ) when. Reading the output leads on the potentiometer, or even how they should read???????

Since the sensor is only a small disc with two small electrodes at one end etc it would seem that the resistance or drop in voltage should continue to change as the disc turns and separate the contacts more and more etc.

Any ideas are welcome and really want to be sure I didn't buy a dud lol.
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  #90  
Old 3rd September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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Reading across the two end contacts I get about 10 ohms. Reading one end and the center wiper, I get a varying rate from 0 to 10 ohms.

Sounds like yours is defective unless you're measuring in some odd way. The one I have is a spare - I'd sell it to you for a reasonable offer if you need it to get your car going. PM me if you're interested.
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  #91  
Old 3rd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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I am going to test again and see what I get because I tested it plugged in and did both ohm and volts and honestly do not recall the values. This was because I was looking for the smooth change my previous one did not have from being broken.

I did also disassemble my old one and it does appear that it would be a loop. Meaning that the distance or resistance would reach a furthest or largest point from the pick up and supply so I believe the low to high and back again reading I got would make sense. Again I will check this again in ohms and post back.

I may be interested in your spare anyhow just so I don't waste time and money with trying to program a bad sensor again.
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  #92  
Old 3rd September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
I am going to test again and see what I get because I tested it plugged in and did both ohm and volts and honestly do not recall the values. This was because I was looking for the smooth change my previous one did not have from being broken.

I did also disassemble my old one and it does appear that it would be a loop. Meaning that the distance or resistance would reach a furthest or largest point from the pick up and supply so I believe the low to high and back again reading I got would make sense. Again I will check this again in ohms and post back.

I may be interested in your spare anyhow just so I don't waste time and money with trying to program a bad sensor again.
Definitely test it disconnected.

I've never see a POT that didn't have high resistance at one extreme and low a the other. In terms of physics, that's the only thing that makes sense: the center contact is a wiper, the resistance material has a fixed value per length... the further you are from the starting point (one end) the higher the resistance. It's possible to create what you described but it would be very unusual.
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  #93  
Old 3rd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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I did check again and am finding just above 5 ohms but need to remove it so I can re check the values as it is being turned yet. Hope to get a chance before the night is over.

I had thought 5 ohm was good being it is marked 5kohm right on the part?
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  #94  
Old 3rd September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
I did check again and am finding just above 5 ohms but need to remove it so I can re check the values as it is being turned yet. Hope to get a chance before the night is over.

I had thought 5 ohm was good being it is marked 5kohm right on the part?
Pretty sure mine measured 10 ohms on the high side.

Maybe someone with a NG900 WIS could find a spec for you (that's not me, I only have a 9-3 WIS).

Last edited by BobSaabit; 3rd September 2012 at 11:39 PM.
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  #95  
Old 3rd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Not 100% but I thought u had read the ng900 & 9-3 used the same sensor when I was researching what models it could be pulled from at the salvage yard.

I hope I can confirm the reading I should be getting before I end up with a problem not being able to program the roof etc.

I am going to remove it in a few min and test it again
..
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  #96  
Old 3rd September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Well with it removed I couldn't duplicate the reading I got previous and have no idea why or wtf I did different then.

I am getting. 70 and smoothly up to 5.40 ohms when turning.


Now just to figure if this is a good range.

Any thoughts on the 5 v 10 ohm issue??
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  #97  
Old 3rd September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
Well with it removed I couldn't duplicate the reading I got previous and have no idea why or wtf I did different then.

I am getting. 70 and smoothly up to 5.40 ohms when turning.


Now just to figure if this is a good range.

Any thoughts on the 5 v 10 ohm issue??
I can't tell you... this is the only one I've ever measured. Could be that either is valid and the computer just needs to be set to know the values.

If yours black or red? Does the color match the one you have? I've heard that the black ones were trouble (doesn't mean it's true :-).
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  #98  
Old 4th September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Bob, thanks for all your help.

Now this red/black pot thing has me thinking.

I have two black ones, and originally thought they were the older or problem ones, BUT I am pretty sure I had that backwards and am sort of remembering a service bulletin I had read advising that the red ones were the problem ones and they needed to be brought to the dealer for replacement.

Also if memory serves me correctly the red was used until late 95 or early 96 and then it was replaced in production by the black ones. This of course was on the ng900 and I have no idea if the color or whole part was changed with the intro of the 9-3.

I will try to find the bulletin as I think I printed it out for my ever growing Saab info files
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  #99  
Old 4th September 2012
BobSaabit BobSaabit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
Bob, thanks for all your help.

Now this red/black pot thing has me thinking.

I have two black ones, and originally thought they were the older or problem ones, BUT I am pretty sure I had that backwards and am sort of remembering a service bulletin I had read advising that the red ones were the problem ones and they needed to be brought to the dealer for replacement.

Also if memory serves me correctly the red was used until late 95 or early 96 and then it was replaced in production by the black ones. This of course was on the ng900 and I have no idea if the color or whole part was changed with the intro of the 9-3.

I will try to find the bulletin as I think I printed it out for my ever growing Saab info files
You might be right... if I have a chance I will peek in the trunk of my '97 and see what's in there.
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  #100  
Old 4th September 2012
LennyD LennyD is offline
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Curious to what you find

I looked over my papers quickly and saw the bulletin but it did not specify color so that may have been online somewhere .

If I locate it I will post up a link etc.
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